D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Lanefan]

This is the second time I have seen this claim. Do you have source?

Monster Vault do not have minion ogres. Monster Manual has minion ogres, but these are fully different stat blocks than the non-minion ogres. The "level" is basically an indication for when the monster is considered aproperiate. You could throw an ogre minion at a 1st level group, having them so demoralised by their overlord that they don't care about pressing the issue if the group actually managed to harm it (no small feat given it's defences). You of course bypass all encounter building guidelines by doing so - but there are no real internal consistency issue appearing as far as I can see?

So with what mechanism are Bob transitioning from elite to minion?

Remember the elite ogre is elite among ogres. The minion ogres are those with not enough spine to rise in the ranks beyond minion state. But as the minions typically is encountered in large groups, they are typically aproperiate to use against higher level heroes.

If the bolded is to be consistent with itself across the entirety of the fiction then those minion Ogres have one hit point no matter what they do or who they fight, meaning one of them could be taken out by a determined kitten with sharp claws and easily one-shotted by any of its buddies during playful rough-housing.

As I really don't think that's what the designers intended, the only other explanation is that they're not minions all the time. And that means changing their intrinsic mechanics to sometimes make them not-minions, and that's where I find a problem.

 

[AnotherGuy]

OK, then, how else do you explain, preferably in a not-too-gamist manner, the monster-construction mechanics that say Bob the Ogre has one hit point when he fights a high-level party but has considerably more than one hit point when he fights his buddy Joe the Other Ogre?

When you're 3 your cat has 25 hit points, when you're 15 your cat has far less hit points.

 

[Hussar]

OK, then, how else do you explain, preferably in a not-too-gamist manner, the monster-construction mechanics that say Bob the Ogre has one hit point when he fights a high-level party but has considerably more than one hit point when he fights his buddy Joe the Other Ogre?

Simple.

The system does not, in any way, produce a single NPC that you would fight at 1st level and then again at 15th level.

Bob the Ogre never has any HP. HP do not exist in the game world. They are not diegetic in any shape or form. The only time Bob the Ogre needs HP is if you are fighting him with a PC. In which case, he would have HP that make sense in context of the scenario. When Bob the Ogre fights his buddy Joe the Other Ogre, the DM decides who wins.

Same as every other version of D&D. The whole, "Bob changes HP" thing was a completely fabricated line of garbage that fueled edition warring. The only difference is, 4e was actually honest about things while, as we've seen repeatedly in this thread, traditional gaming wants to obfuscated and bury the lede in order to pretend that some sort of magical simulation is going on.

 

[clearstream]

The system does not, in any way, produce a single NPC that you would fight at 1st level and then again at 15th level.

Right, the rules on DMG 56 would limit the minion level to 6th for a 1st level party. The core book Ogre minions are 11th and 16th.

Bob the Ogre never has any HP. HP do not exist in the game world. They are not diegetic in any shape or form. The only time Bob the Ogre needs HP is if you are fighting him with a PC. In which case, he would have HP that make sense in context of the scenario. When Bob the Ogre fights his buddy Joe the Other Ogre, the DM decides who wins.

One could say that all abstract parameters are non-diegetic, e.g. a longsword's d8 is non-diegetic. Characters can know something associated with HP and weapon damage dice through witnessing their in-world effects, but they cannot know them as numbers or dice. They can probably say things like "a longsword wears a foe down faster than a dagger" but they can't say things like "a longsword deals d8 damage and a dagger deals d4".

Same as every other version of D&D. The whole, "Bob changes HP" thing was a completely fabricated line of garbage that fueled edition warring. The only difference is, 4e was actually honest about things while, as we've seen repeatedly in this thread, traditional gaming wants to obfuscated and bury the lede in order to pretend that some sort of magical simulation is going on.

Agreed, as @Enrahim already pointed out, the listed minion monsters are separate creatures from the other roles. I think that does open up the question of whether monster roles should be considered diegetic? Perhaps they are in the same way that other system parameters are?

 

[Enrahim]

If the bolded is to be consistent with itself across the entirety of the fiction then those minion Ogres have one hit point no matter what they do or who they fight, meaning one of them could be taken out by a determined kitten with sharp claws and easily one-shotted by any of its buddies during playful rough-housing.

As I really don't think that's what the designers intended, the only other explanation is that they're not minions all the time. And that means changing their intrinsic mechanics to sometimes make them not-minions, and that's where I find a problem.

Well, you can argue that minions in it self make little sense. My point is that Bob the ogre doesn't transition from one state to another.

The kitten somehow hitting AC23 would indeed take out the ogre that is balanced to be an aproperiate challenge for a group of 11 level characters when teamed up with 4 of it's kind. This is weird, but not necessarily inconsistent.

Draw steel by the way have fixed this particular issue with minions.

 

[Enrahim]

Agreed, as @Enrahim already pointed out, the listed minion monsters are separate creatures from the other roles. I think that does open up the question of whether monster roles should be considered diegetic? Perhaps they are in the same way that other system parameters are?

I would say the monster's status as minion/normal/elite should absolutely be diegetic. In fantasy characters tend to not have any problem to single out just who poses a real threat even in a sea of similar looking goons.