D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

This is the second time I have seen this claim. Do you have source?
Certainly not, since the claim isn't true. It's often repeated though.

Keep in mind, Lanefan is of the opinion that a creature cannot ever have more than one, singular, statblock. Unless it's a PC, then it can have a statblock that changes over time as a result of context.

Monster Vault do not have minion ogres. Monster Manual has minion ogres, but these are fully different stat blocks than the non-minion ogres. The "level" is basically an indication for when the monster is considered aproperiate. You could throw an ogre minion at a 1st level group, having them so demoralised by their overlord that they don't care about pressing the issue if the group actually managed to harm it (no small feat given it's defences). You of course bypass all encounter building guidelines by doing so - but there are no real internal consistency issue appearing as far as I can see?

So with what mechanism are Bob transitioning from elite to minion?

Remember the elite ogre is elite among ogres. The minion ogres are those with not enough spine to rise in the ranks beyond minion state. But as the minions typically is encountered in large groups, they are typically aproperiate to use against higher level heroes.
I mean, I would say that the actual thing going on is that statblocks are inherently contextual.

Because that's the inherent problem of the concept of "CR". There is no such thing as a singular threat-level that is universally true for a specific entity. Its threat level actually is relative to the context in which it appears. The idea that we can capture this through an abstraction that never changes is, simply, a mistaken belief. It's a beautiful belief! But it's inherently incorrect in the vast majority of cases. We can define levels, at which certain power can be expected--but any singular monster is not inherently level 15 or level 5 or level 2358234804. The monster is what it is. The gameplay abstractions change in order to correctly represent how threatening a particular creature is.

So we take a singular ogre; let's say it's Corrupted Ogre, empowered by demon blood, so it's even a bit tougher than a typical ogre. If we consider its threat from a 1st-level perspective? Nearly impossible to survive. Don't represent it as a monster. Represent it some other way--such as a skill challenge or an environmental hazard the players need to flee from, because they simply don't have meaningful ability to kill it, or if they do, it's not because of their battle prowess, it's because they've found One Neat Trick (Overlords Hate Them!). Now, consider the exact same organism, how should it be viewed from a level 5 perspective? Probably a Solo. It's now just within range of 5th level characters to take down in a straight fight, but it's tough, and taking it on without separating it from other monsters is decidedly unwise.

Repeat this process at higher levels. Perhaps at level 8, the correct mechanical abstraction is an Elite: strong, but you could take on two or even three of them without really being concerned. Perhaps at level 11, it's a Standard: the party could take on a pack of these things without really worrying much. And then at (say) level 17, this particular organism is no longer a meaningful threat unless it arrives en masse. (There are proposals floating around for a "mook" or something like that, a step between Standard and Minion, something that doesn't fall in a single hit, but doesn't have a ton of staying power either; generally, they're two-hit wonders, but a single crit will kill them.)

This isn't changing the inherent characteristics of the creature. It is, instead, recognizing that the mechanical abstraction is our servant, not our master. We can--and should--change the mechanical abstraction if that more accurately represents the experience that a given character should have.

And that's where Lanefan's argument breaks down. It depends on the assertion that a single mechanical expression of a creature must be the one and only expression it ever gets. Its mechanical expression is more important than the actual impact of the creature in context and the experience of a character of different strength fighting that enemy. Or, the rather rosy belief that it's possible to design a singular mechanical expression which definitely always produces the correct kind of experience, no matter what level the character is.
 

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One if the reasons I didn't care for 4e in the long run (even though I played it) were there gamist issues like minions. At low levels it was okay. You were fighting conscripts, barely trained commoners who didn't know how to defend themselves. But at higher levels? It just felt wrong.

No game is perfect but the non-diegetic nature of minions never sat right.
If one watched Starship Troopers Rico and his team take the better part of a minute to take one of those bugs down, but by the end of the show they take a few seconds. Similar concept.
It is not only that the mechanics depict minions to have less hit points but that they also do more damage than their standard counterpart, they may also have better defenses to avoid the kitten damage etc.
5e includes a little of this idea in the DMG by having Improvised Damage and its severity affected by character level.
 

Certainly not, since the claim isn't true. It's often repeated though.

Keep in mind, Lanefan is of the opinion that a creature cannot ever have more than one, singular, statblock. Unless it's a PC, then it can have a statblock that changes over time as a result of context.


I mean, I would say that the actual thing going on is that statblocks are inherently contextual.

Because that's the inherent problem of the concept of "CR". There is no such thing as a singular threat-level that is universally true for a specific entity. Its threat level actually is relative to the context in which it appears. The idea that we can capture this through an abstraction that never changes is, simply, a mistaken belief. It's a beautiful belief! But it's inherently incorrect in the vast majority of cases. We can define levels, at which certain power can be expected--but any singular monster is not inherently level 15 or level 5 or level 2358234804. The monster is what it is. The gameplay abstractions change in order to correctly represent how threatening a particular creature is.

So we take a singular ogre; let's say it's Corrupted Ogre, empowered by demon blood, so it's even a bit tougher than a typical ogre. If we consider its threat from a 1st-level perspective? Nearly impossible to survive. Don't represent it as a monster. Represent it some other way--such as a skill challenge or an environmental hazard the players need to flee from, because they simply don't have meaningful ability to kill it, or if they do, it's not because of their battle prowess, it's because they've found One Neat Trick (Overlords Hate Them!). Now, consider the exact same organism, how should it be viewed from a level 5 perspective? Probably a Solo. It's now just within range of 5th level characters to take down in a straight fight, but it's tough, and taking it on without separating it from other monsters is decidedly unwise.

Repeat this process at higher levels. Perhaps at level 8, the correct mechanical abstraction is an Elite: strong, but you could take on two or even three of them without really being concerned. Perhaps at level 11, it's a Standard: the party could take on a pack of these things without really worrying much. And then at (say) level 17, this particular organism is no longer a meaningful threat unless it arrives en masse. (There are proposals floating around for a "mook" or something like that, a step between Standard and Minion, something that doesn't fall in a single hit, but doesn't have a ton of staying power either; generally, they're two-hit wonders, but a single crit will kill them.)

This isn't changing the inherent characteristics of the creature. It is, instead, recognizing that the mechanical abstraction is our servant, not our master. We can--and should--change the mechanical abstraction if that more accurately represents the experience that a given character should have.

And that's where Lanefan's argument breaks down. It depends on the assertion that a single mechanical expression of a creature must be the one and only expression it ever gets. Its mechanical expression is more important than the actual impact of the creature in context and the experience of a character of different strength fighting that enemy. Or, the rather rosy belief that it's possible to design a singular mechanical expression which definitely always produces the correct kind of experience, no matter what level the character is.
put simply, i would say the elite/minion/ect rules emphasize more the relative strength of enemies that exists to the party across all tiers of play and how at some points that differential of power becomes exponential.
 

put simply, i would say the elite/minion/ect rules emphasize more the relative strength of enemies to the party across all tiers of play

Don’t the normal stat blocks do that better?

Like I don’t have a particular issue with minions from a gameplay perspective, but they do seem to crap all over the sim perspective. In fact they probably make better gameplay.

I was definitely more concerned with gamism back when 4e was introduced so I get that perspective but minions don’t typically make sense from a sim perspective and I get that too.
 

Like I don’t have a particular issue with minions from a gameplay perspective, but they do seem to crap all over the sim perspective.
For some maybe and can also empathise but only to a degree, because if I were sim-orientated, and I used to be more so, there would be things I'd first consider first rather than worry about minions, namely magic and hit points. To be honest I'm not sure how one can touch on minions and completely ignore how magic and hit points affect sim and world-building.
 

For some maybe and can also empathise but only to a degree, because if I were sim-orientated, and I used to be more so, there would be things I'd first consider first rather than worry about minions, namely magic and hit points. To be honest I'm not sure how one can touch on minions and completely ignore how magic and hit points affect sim and world-building.

Sometimes there’s just not a particularly better alternative so you live with what you’ve got.
 

Don’t the normal stat blocks do that better?

Like I don’t have a particular issue with minions from a gameplay perspective, but they do seem to crap all over the sim perspective. In fact they probably make better gameplay.

I was definitely more concerned with gamism back when 4e was introduced so I get that perspective but minions don’t typically make sense from a sim perspective and I get that too.
well, no, i don't think they do that better (IMO of course)

because i think there would come a point where the party has just become so strong that they should all be able to splatter some goblins instantly with even their weakest attacks but i don't think mechanically the output of characters really matches that, like, narrativity, a sufficiently strong fighter could tear goblins apart with their bare hands, but mechanically they're still doing 1+STR damage per hit which is going to take a few hits to take out even a single goblin, what's their base HP? 7 it looks like, so yeah, at a max STR of +5 that's still going to take two hits from a fighter to take out a single goblin.
 

And just to kind of complete the point the minion concept is a great idea that can be modified to match with your sim-tastes
Give it the necessary defenses so it does not seem wishy-washy with a successful cat scratch attack, so to speak

Besides increasing AC, there is Damage Threshold or Damage Resistance, # of Hits, Immunity to x, Reactions etc
 

well, no, i don't think they do that better (IMO of course)

because i think there would come a point where the party has just become so strong that they should all be able to splatter some goblins instantly with even their weakest attacks but i don't think mechanically the output of characters really matches that, like, narrativity, a sufficiently strong fighter could tear goblins apart with their bare hands, but mechanically they're still doing 1+STR damage per hit which is going to take a few hits to take out even a single goblin, what's their base HP? 7 it looks like, so yeah, at a max STR of +5 that's still going to take two hits from a fighter to take out a single goblin.
+1 weapon? duelling? etc...

might do for goblins: would rarely get to ogre one-shotting damage
 

I agree charracters can observe something diegetic associated with the parameters, but do they address them in-world as "minion", "elite", "brute", "artillery" etc?
Ah, I don't think the other role modifiers are likely to be diegetic. Just the "You are just a minion, and hence beneath me", and "Those are the overlords elite enforcers".
 

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