D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Enrahim]

Let's say I meet Bob the Ogre when I'm a 1st level Fighter. I'm a pushover for him, so Bob's probably statted as an Elite. Let's also say I somehow escape that encounter with my life, then 6 months later when I'm 17th level I meet Bob again (meanwhile Bob's had an uneventful life in the meantime) is he still statted as the same Elite he was before or does he get busted down to Minion?

If he's a Minion now, there's your proof.

That is exactly what I have been saying. An elite ogre is an elite ogre, no matter if you are level 1 or 30 with exactly the same statblock. The elite ogre is going to be be practically invincible against the level 1 group, while it would probably be hardly worth paying attention to for the level 30 group. I see absolutely no mechanism in any rules to change the effect of a given monster.

There are rules for creating new minion/elite monsters that recommend using existing statblocks as inspiration, but this is not the same as changing an existing monster.

(Edit: as an aside, if you want to introduce an ogre to a first level group, most GMs would likely not want to make it an elite.. A singlar minion of the weakest type (ogre thug) might actually be somewhat interesting)

Thing is, if I throw 8 Goblins at a 9th-level party or a 5th-level party or a 1st-level party, nothing intrinsically changes about those Goblins other than their life expectancy. They still each have about 5 h.p. on average, they still attack with crossbow or shortsword, and they still have the collective intelligence of a small block of wood.

Flip side, whether I throw a full Lich at a 3rd-level party or a 6th-level party or an 11th-level party it changes nothing about the Lich itself: it's still the same Lich with the same statblock and still has all its tricks.

Yes. It is the exact same thing in 4ed.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Flip side, whether I throw a full Lich at a 3rd-level party or a 6th-level party or an 11th-level party it changes nothing about the Lich itself: it's still the same Lich with the same statblock and still has all its tricks.

I can see a high-level warrior wading through ogres with clean efficient kills, it is a less likely occurrence happening with a cluster of liches I feel.

 

[Enrahim]

I can see a high-level warrior wading through ogres with clean efficient kills, I do not see that happening with a cluster of Liches.

I think my problem with seeing that, Is that i wonder how you ended up with a cluster of liches? If you first have a cluster of liches, I would think having a holy sword of vengeance cutting trough their frail material bodies would be easier to imagine than the fighter slicing trough burly ogres like butter?

 

[AnotherGuy]

I think my problem with seeing that, Is that i wonder how you ended up with a cluster of liches?

My point exactly. If your argument against the minion concept is using a Lich as an example, then you do not understand the purpose of the minion.

 

[AnotherGuy]

If you first have a cluster of liches, I would think having a holy sword of vengeance cutting trough their frail material bodies would be easier to imagine than the fighter slicing trough burly ogres like butter?

I do not have an issue imagining a high-level warrior using mortal strikes against 3-4 ogres

 

[Enrahim]

My point exactly. If your argument against the minion concept is using a Lich as an example, then you do not understand the purpose of the minion.

My point with introducing the lich was to point out that all editions of D&D has had sensibilities about "aproperiate" creatures based on level? It was no comment about minions?

As a side note both 4ed MM liches are elite. It however do present a minion lich vestige. This is a lich remnant that in the lore section explicitely calls out that their body is extremely "unstable", and hence crumbles to dust when damaged. (There are also a reason for them for seeking out other vestiges)

 

[AnotherGuy]

My point with introducing the lich was to point out that all editions of D&D has had sensibilities about "aproperiate" creatures based on level? It was no comment about minions?

Ok, I replied to Lanefan who was making the case that the lich's stats did not change from level to level when you encountered it.
It was not a comment about appropriate creatures based on level.

As a side note both 4ed MM liches are elite. It however do present a minion lich vestige. This is a lich remnant that in the lore section explicitely calls out that their body is extremely fragile, and hence crumbles to dust when damaged. There are also lore on how they are seeking out other vestiges.

That is great lore for a weaker form of lich.
I'm sure you agree in that that the vestige is very different to the concept of a minion.

 

[Enrahim]

I'm sure you agree in that that the vestige is very different to the concept of a minion.

I am confused. My argument in defence of the minion concept is that this is exactly how I read the minion concept?

That is minions are creatures that is substantially weaker and with less interesting abilities than "normal" monsters. This makes them easier to handle in larger groups.

For tough monster families even the weaker monster types were designed to be pretty strong. That meant that a group of these slightly weaker monsters still turned out to be significantly more powerful than a single stronger monster from the same family. Hence when creating set piece battles (where total complexity to run is the limiting factor), the group of weaklings were natural to introduce at a higher level than the singular somewhat stronger monster.

The higher "level" of the minions are simply a mathematical (seemingly unintended) consequence of these basic observations regarding how less featured monsters are easier to handle.

 

[Enrahim]

Oh! Ref my previous post. I now think I understand how the 4ed MM ogre might situation might have arrisen!

They thought it would be cool with 3 flavors of standard ogres on 350xp, alongside the weakling 150xp minion and the 1200 elite. One that is just smash stuff, one that has has a scary ability, and one that actually has some brains. Cool idea, right?

Trouble was that the just smash stuff ogre hence became minion-simple to run in practice.
Some guidelines regarding minion designation based on ability complexity came (blindly) into play, and hence it got demoted to minion for set piece battles building purposes. The xp budget was not changed tough, so the stats were just reworked to match the relevant level/xp math.

 

[TwoSix]

Why is 4e "trying to tell" any stories? Or any edition, for all that?

Isn't the story something that each table of people comes up with on their own in whatever manner suits them?

No.