D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

See, I actually agree with the stance that games can be a tool of moral education and investigation.

I just still don't see how the thing you are targeting is in any way special.

There are much, much, MUCH more important things to fix, if our goal is to eliminate the lingering stench of colonialism from D&D. Minions are so far down the list, and share that spot with numerous other things, that singling them out for special attention is...as noted...special pleading.

Unless and until you can make an argument that actually does single out minion rules as specially different from the other parts of D&D that reek of colonialism, I stand by my previous arguments; they still apply, just now on the colonialism front, rather than the senseless-murder front.
To me that amounts to an argument for inaction: why attend to one thing, given the whole is so appalling? I have at least three motives for resisting that argument

the latest versions of D&D have made improvements to which the tirades of those who detest them stand in testimony​
whether the whole is appalling is ultimately settled in play at each table​
just because I lack sufficient time and energy to attend to everything, doesn't mean I should not attend to things that I feel inclined to address​

Whether or not there are more important things to fix, just isn't responsive to what I am saying. I have not said that you ought to share the moral concern that I have laid out or rate it above other concerns that you may have, only that it can stand as a condition for judging the design (of minions) not worth doing.
 

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:unsure: Your open bias against Narrativism makes you label things that you dislike as "Narrativist" even when they actually align far closer and overtly with "Gamism." How about you just say that you dislike minion mechanics without needing to throw your hatred for Narrativism around on things that aren't even Narrativist? That's much easier and direct while also being factually true.
One reason minions exist is to mechanically support the narrative of the lone badass (or small group of badasses) wading through wave after wave of enemies. My totally obvious bias doesn't affect that reason. It's there either way.
 

One reason minions exist is to mechanically support the narrative of the lone badass (or small group of badasses) wading through wave after wave of enemies. My totally obvious bias doesn't affect that reason. It's there either way.
That would be High-Concept Simulationism. If you're going to use GNS terminology, at least use it correctly. Just because you can describe play using the word narrative does not make it an instance of Narrativism.
 


Where did you get that conclusion? I literally stated "Meanwhile 5e has far lower numbers for AC meaning that lower level monsters can be a meaningful threat for longer."

I think it works far better than minions. In the DMG they discussed using mobs for large numbers of low level monsters which is what I do.

Meanwhile the core design of every version of D&D means that at some point monsters that were a threat at low levels are not a threat at higher levels.
See: the "50 peasants vs 1 dragon" problem.
 

To me that amounts to an argument for inaction: why attend to one thing, given the whole is so appalling? I have at least three motives for resisting that argument

the latest versions of D&D have made improvements to which the tirades of those who detest them stand in testimony​
whether the whole is appalling is ultimately settled in play at each table​
just because I lack sufficient time and energy to attend to everything, doesn't mean I should not attend to things that I feel inclined to address​

Whether or not there are more important things to fix, just isn't responsive to what I am saying. I have not said that you ought to share the moral concern that I have laid out or rate it above other concerns that you may have, only that it can stand as a condition for judging the design (of minions) not worth doing.
Okay. Seeing an argument trotted out only against one specific thing, while not even lifting a finger to talk about, y'know, how goblins and kobolds are specifically designed to become that--to be sapient beings who BECOME nothing but trash to be swept aside by the Great And Powerful Heroes--is still, pretty clearly, special pleading.

If we're going to take this stance, we're going to need to actually redesign the system so that we simply do not demonize, period.

That's not going to happen because we get rid of minion rules.

Alternatively....we could use minion rules to apply to people we're supposed to identify with even though we dislike them. Then the treatment is bilateral. Nobody's special for being minion-ified. I dunno. Seems like it might be an easier way to go about it than trying to rip out the guts of the system.
 

You're right, but at least the popularity of something has a strong correlation to how much money one can expect to make from it. I don't really think popularity matters in any other way.
Given the success of the recent Superman, which specifically used the "dorky", "uncool", unpopular "trunks" outfit for Superman.... No, I don't really accept that popularity even has a guaranteed strong correlation to projected money. Sometimes, the right constellation of things that are of debatable quality individually can, collectively, become something great.

Likewise, I've seen not just one, but four different MMOs, and multiple different single-player RPGs, suffer very specifically from making several popular, frequently-requested changes, each of which individually had high player approval, but which collectively produced something that upset the players severely. Something where the developers have had to step back and start asking themselves NOT "what is the thing people are clamoring for", not even "what is the thing likely to get people to buy", but rather "what is the thing that fosters a good experience?"

It's just another example of surrogation. Turns out, people have a bad habit of short-sightedly wanting only the things that sound immediately cool, without thinking about the consequences.

Designers cannot cede the effort of design to popular vote. Popular opinion is one input point, and certainly one you shouldn't neglect lightly (I've seen negative consequences for that, too). Theory is another--and should not be dismissed lightly either. Practicality, as in budget, deadlines, work-hours, etc., is also very important.

But what that means is, sometimes the thing that creates good design is literally against what players ask for, but is in fact what players want. Because it is an unfortunate but frequently common occurrence that people have very strong ideas about what they think will make them happy, without actually knowing what things really do or will make them happy. Because a lot of people are bad at self-reflection and long-term consequence determination. A lot of people have pretty narrow spheres of awareness, and thus simply haven't tried things. Sometimes, people have been burned by something unfortunate a while back, and thus have a reflexive dislike of something they actually would really really really like if they were exposed to it separately. Sometimes, people have heard a convincing but inaccurate argument that has pitched them against something. (Oh, how much I hate that particular one.) Sometimes, people have preferences or beliefs based on what is socially desired or approved of, e.g. the vast majority of American coffee-drinkers claim they want a "rich, dark, hearty roast"---and the vast majority of Americans who identify coffee they actually like, without knowing what it is, demonstrably prefer lightly-roasted "weak" coffee. Or the discovery that about a third of Americans really desperately wanted extra chunky spaghetti sauce, but literally had no idea because they didn't know such a thing was...a thing.

Reaching the things that actually produce the experience a person wants to have can be an extremely complicated affair. Even when we look at statistical averages of people, it can be difficult to target clusters, let alone the whole field. Pretending that every customer is perfectly accurate about gauging their own preferences leads to lots of problems. Pretending that people know nothing at all about their own preferences leads to lots of problems. The only useful way forward requires excellent discernment, a willingness to make mistakes while experimenting, and the ability to listen when listening is needed....and stop listening when listening is unproductive. That's extremely hard. It's one of the things we pay designers to be good at doing.
 


That would be High-Concept Simulationism. If you're going to use GNS terminology, at least use it correctly. Just because you can describe play using the word narrative does not make it an instance of Narrativism.
Ok. I'll use whatever term you like. It doesn't work for me, because it isn't about representing the in-fiction setting, nor is it necessary for practical play.
 

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