D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Given the success of the recent Superman, which specifically used the "dorky", "uncool", unpopular "trunks" outfit for Superman.... No, I don't really accept that popularity even has a guaranteed strong correlation to projected money. Sometimes, the right constellation of things that are of debatable quality individually can, collectively, become something great.

Likewise, I've seen not just one, but four different MMOs, and multiple different single-player RPGs, suffer very specifically from making several popular, frequently-requested changes, each of which individually had high player approval, but which collectively produced something that upset the players severely. Something where the developers have had to step back and start asking themselves NOT "what is the thing people are clamoring for", not even "what is the thing likely to get people to buy", but rather "what is the thing that fosters a good experience?"

It's just another example of surrogation. Turns out, people have a bad habit of short-sightedly wanting only the things that sound immediately cool, without thinking about the consequences.

Designers cannot cede the effort of design to popular vote. Popular opinion is one input point, and certainly one you shouldn't neglect lightly (I've seen negative consequences for that, too). Theory is another--and should not be dismissed lightly either. Practicality, as in budget, deadlines, work-hours, etc., is also very important.

But what that means is, sometimes the thing that creates good design is literally against what players ask for, but is in fact what players want. Because it is an unfortunate but frequently common occurrence that people have very strong ideas about what they think will make them happy, without actually knowing what things really do or will make them happy. Because a lot of people are bad at self-reflection and long-term consequence determination. A lot of people have pretty narrow spheres of awareness, and thus simply haven't tried things. Sometimes, people have been burned by something unfortunate a while back, and thus have a reflexive dislike of something they actually would really really really like if they were exposed to it separately. Sometimes, people have heard a convincing but inaccurate argument that has pitched them against something. (Oh, how much I hate that particular one.) Sometimes, people have preferences or beliefs based on what is socially desired or approved of, e.g. the vast majority of American coffee-drinkers claim they want a "rich, dark, hearty roast"---and the vast majority of Americans who identify coffee they actually like, without knowing what it is, demonstrably prefer lightly-roasted "weak" coffee. Or the discovery that about a third of Americans really desperately wanted extra chunky spaghetti sauce, but literally had no idea because they didn't know such a thing was...a thing.

Reaching the things that actually produce the experience a person wants to have can be an extremely complicated affair. Even when we look at statistical averages of people, it can be difficult to target clusters, let alone the whole field. Pretending that every customer is perfectly accurate about gauging their own preferences leads to lots of problems. Pretending that people know nothing at all about their own preferences leads to lots of problems. The only useful way forward requires excellent discernment, a willingness to make mistakes while experimenting, and the ability to listen when listening is needed....and stop listening when listening is unproductive. That's extremely hard. It's one of the things we pay designers to be good at doing.


So let's get this straight. The Superman movie which is doing quite well is somehow not what people actually wanted to see? That the most popular TTRPG ever released that has exceeded expectations since day 1 is poorly designed?

D&D may not work for you, but their goal for the game is sales. Its not a niche product, its designed for broad appeal and most game publishers would live to have a fraction of their sales.

But you personally think they should have done ... what? Designed the game specifically for you?
 

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What does that have to do with the price of tea in Kara-Tur? Dragons have always been a threat.

Once again, and I'm getting tired of repeating, I have no idea what your point is.
No. They aren't a threat. That's the problem. The 50 peasants (or 100 peasants, or whatever it was) are functionally guaranteed to kill the dragon.

That's the problem with this alleged "solution". It makes the "minions" too powerful.
 

So let's get this straight. The Superman movie which is doing quite well is somehow not what people actually wanted to see?
Correct. People say they want a "cool" Superman. But then the thing that actually succeeded was a dorky Superman, a Superman who was comfortable being kinda lame.

Directors had been giving people the Superman the public told them they wanted: complicated, gritty, grim, violent, willing to kill. James Gunn correctly--after some lobbying from Mr. Corenswet, I've been told--understood that making Superman cool is counterproductive. It seems like it's what we need, that we have to grunge him up a bit otherwise he can't appeal to the modern, jaded, cynical audience. But it isn't.

To make a successful Superman, you have to make Superman. And Superman needs to be the brightest thing in the room--that's the whole point of the persona worn by Clark Kent, the heart-of-gold farmboy from Kansas. Superman needs to be a little dorky, because only someone willing to be a little dorky can be sincere enough to be Superman. Superman needs to step back from being the absolute coolest thing he could potentially be, because he needs to be someone a child would willingly approach to ask for directions.

They've finally stopped giving people what the metrics and surveys and audience personality assessments "predicted" people wanted, and actually looked at what makes Superman be Superman?, and guess what, it's goddamn BRILLIANT.

(It also helps that they made Luthor an absolute, unmitigated monster served by "banality of evil" subordinates who are VERY much the "well I didn't think the Face-Eating Leopard Party would eat MY face!" type, rather than being purely innocent bystanders. But Corenswet's Superman is what makes all the rest of it work.)

That the most popular TTRPG ever released that has exceeded expectations since day 1 is poorly designed?
I mean, yes, I absolutely believe that. I'm also 100% certain you won't listen to any argument I have with regard to that, so I'm not going to bother wasting your time and mine listing things I know you won't listen to.

D&D may not work for you, but their goal for the game is sales. Its not a niche product, its designed for broad appeal and most game publishers would live to have a fraction of their sales.

But you personally think they should have done ... what? Designed the game specifically for you?
I personally think they should have made several different decisions. I see no point in discussing them in detail with you, because I am completely certain that discussion won't produce even the slightest bit of progress on anything whatsoever.
 

No. They aren't a threat. That's the problem. The 50 peasants (or 100 peasants, or whatever it was) are functionally guaranteed to kill the dragon.

That's the problem with this alleged "solution". It makes the "minions" too powerful.

You think the peasants stand a chance against a dragon? One that would just fly down an obliterate them with a breath weapon? That's kind of the point of dragons in 5e, enough armed soldiers can still be a threat to most dragons, especially young dragons. But they're still a massive threat.

How that relates to minions I have no clue.
 

:unsure: Your open bias against Narrativism makes you label things that you dislike as "Narrativist" even when they actually align far closer and overtly with "Gamism." How about you just say that you dislike minion mechanics without needing to throw your hatred for Narrativism around on things that aren't even Narrativist? That's much easier and direct while also being factually true.

I dunno. I think its a gamist mechanism, but its associated with fictional tropes (specifically the ones you see in action fiction where heroes go through random henchmen like cordwood) which is why its there at all, so I'd say its got a leg in each camp there.

Its particular expression is gamist in that its designed to make that process simple, in part because the mooks/minions are still supposed to be something of some import (in the sense they usually aren't harmless) but not such that they warrant much handling time.
 

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