D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

That's not what I said. I said that people leave the hobby at about the same rate as people join the hobby. That's why the gaming population didn't grow for thirty years. Yet, the average age of gamers stayed pretty much the same - late teens, early 20's. So, unless a lot of us have somehow discovered a fountain of youth, doesn't that mean that there's a fairly constant turnover?

At no point did I even hint that the reason for the turnover would be bad DM's. How could it be if only about 1 in 5 are actually bad?

And I'm saying that correlation does not mean causation. People have more time and opportunity to play before then get busy with careers and kids, there is no proof of causation of there being bad DMs and the reasons the majority of people playing at any one time are a certain 4 year age range.

If correlation proved causation then I could say that measles cases cause an increase in marriages because the trends in measles cases and number of marriages are highly correlated. As are the number of shark attacks and how much ice cream we eat and the number of pool deaths and the amount of electricity created by nuclear power plants [1] to name a few.
 

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No. What makes conversation very difficult is the endless quibbling and waffling over every single definition out there without any actual attempt to engage in discussion. FFS, is "Bad DM" really that hard to define? Good grief.
Not at all. It's a DM who abuses his authority. He railroads. He drops dragons when irritated. And so on. It's not when you are bored, because others may enjoy that game.
I notice that you did manage to completely ignore the whole "1 in 5" thing I posted about virtually every other amateur hobby out there. You really believe that somehow DM's are batting better than average than pretty much any other hobby?
Yes. It's a VERY different kind of hobby than turtle racing or sculpting. Also, too many people equate being bad at a hobby with not being good at the hobby.

Years ago there was a 1st edition 1 shot at a convention that I got into. There was a huge physical set up with miniatures and the goal was to go down the path of the physical set up and reach the end. If you beat the end, you won this one shot.

We were all level 3 or 4 and we were told that there would be no rests, so whatever spells we had would be it. I played the magic user. In addition to the few spells I had, I also had a wand of magic missile with 3 charges.

We got to the first encounter and it had a spell caster. I used my wand(or maybe memorized MM spells) I twice and disrupted the enemy spellcaster twice, neutralizing him because magic missile is a very fast spell. The group handily won that fight. The next fight I didn't cast anything, because the rest of the group had it handled easily. Over the remaining other encounters I cast one spell and emptied the wand.

When we got to the final fight, I had two spells left, one of which was web. A group of dopplegangers came out looking exactly like us and were going to kill us. We were all low on hit points and resources, and even fresh would probably couldn't have taken on that many dopplegangers. Except that I still had my web spell and got initiative. All the dopplegangers were caught in the web and we killed them at a distance.

My nursing of my spells, only using them when necessary and to great effect, was the only reason we won our way to the end, let alone won the last fight. At the end, though, we all had to vote for who we thought did the best job with their characters by giving each person other than us a score from 1-5 without repeating a number. The only reason I didn't win was one guy gave me a 1. When I asked him why, he told me that I was the worst person to play a magic user that he ever saw. He insisted that the fact that I had spells left over at the end was proof and that I should have used them all up earlier.

The moral, just because someone says something is bad, doesn't mean that it is. He may not understand it. He may not like it for whatever reason(narrative vs. sim). He may think that not good = bad.

I don't give much weight to random internet pollsters saying that 20% of everyone in a hobby is bad. Too many folks get things like that wrong. That's why I use a very specific definition for bad when it comes to DMing. Is the DM being abusive with his authrority. If yes, bad. If no, not bad.
 

Except that I can define it, and have. Many times.

The problem with "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" with DMs is that it applies to DMs where you just aren't a good fit, rather than just to bad DMs. If you prefer a narrative style and sit down to a sim game, you are not going to enjoy it. Bad DM! No biscuit for you!

That non-definition definition of the Supreme Court's doesn't work for D&D.
Again, you're simply presuming bad faith on the part of players that apparently players are incapable of differentiating between a mismatch in playstyles and someone who is actually a bad DM. It is utterly impossible for players to know the difference apparently. Only the godlike knowledge of being a DM allows us to know the difference between a bad DM and just a table that we didn't fit in at.

And you wonder why it's so difficult to actually have a conversation? When you are presuming that anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of understanding the difference?
 

TGIF, everyone!! Hope you have a splendiferous day. We're blessed to have the luxury to gather here and discuss games, merriment and other frivolity. 😄🥳🍺🍷

Yes, many of us enjoy arguments (it's true). Many of us enjoy feeling "smart" too (<insert zinger here!>). It's a distraction from the banality and micro-humiliations of real life, but there is something special about these games that we all know and love. Hope we can focus on what brings us together and not what tears us apart (our human foibles).
 

And I'm saying that correlation does not mean causation. People have more time and opportunity to play before then get busy with careers and kids, there is no proof of causation of there being bad DMs and the reasons the majority of people playing at any one time are a certain 4 year age range.

If correlation proved causation then I could say that measles cases cause an increase in marriages because the trends in measles cases and number of marriages are highly correlated. As are the number of shark attacks and how much ice cream we eat and the number of pool deaths and the amount of electricity created by nuclear power plants [1] to name a few.
Congratulations. I NEVER SAID THAT THERE WAS ANY CORRELATION. That's something you have, for some bizarre reason, added in that I never said. So. Yup. There is no correlation between the turnover of players in the hobby and the number of bad DM's in the hobby. I totally, 100% agree.

You are right.
 

Again, you're simply presuming bad faith on the part of players that apparently players are incapable of differentiating between a mismatch in playstyles and someone who is actually a bad DM. It is utterly impossible for players to know the difference apparently. Only the godlike knowledge of being a DM allows us to know the difference between a bad DM and just a table that we didn't fit in at.

And you wonder why it's so difficult to actually have a conversation? When you are presuming that anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of understanding the difference?
Not bad faith. Poor understanding or articulation of the issues. I've personally seen it happen many times in too many hobbies to just assume everyone is getting it right. I've seen it happen with D&D.

I'm not saying everyone is doing that for every DM said to be bad, but enough surely do that to drop that 20% number.
 
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Congratulations. I NEVER SAID THAT THERE WAS ANY CORRELATION. That's something you have, for some bizarre reason, added in that I never said. So. Yup. There is no correlation between the turnover of players in the hobby and the number of bad DM's in the hobby. I totally, 100% agree.

You are right.
Finally! We've reached consensus!!!

(Kidding! Only kidding. 😁)
 

Never said they didn't. That has nothing to do with my ability to express myself regarding the practice however.

I didn't question your ability to express yourself.

I am presenting a counter-argument - we should not cordon off an entire style of games ("D&D and similar games") as sacrosanct from having such rules.

That you want to have a game you like without such rules would not be an issue. Suggesting that in general games similar to D&D should not have them is over-reach, however.
 

Again, you're simply presuming bad faith on the part of players that apparently players are incapable of differentiating between a mismatch in playstyles and someone who is actually a bad DM. It is utterly impossible for players to know the difference apparently. Only the godlike knowledge of being a DM allows us to know the difference between a bad DM and just a table that we didn't fit in at.

Hey, what's with all the absolutes? Don't drive this to poles without nuance. Please.

Note something - you yourself were asserting that there's a pretty high turnover rate in players, that a player's career in the game might be as short as a year.

How much expertise in what constitutes good or bad gaming, or good and bad GMing practices, does one get in a year - their very first year? At that point you've probably only played one game, under one GM! How much are you going to know? Like, one year after I started gaming, I was 13*! 13-year-olds are not known for their depth of understanding of... pretty much anything. If I wasn't having fun, I don't know that I, or anyone like me, could be trusted to accurately identify the reasons for discontent.

Around here, we talk incessantly about things that do and don't work for us, but we are not representative of the gaming world, and should not assume everyone else is so discerning.



*Not exactly true - I'd played some Tunnels and Trolls previously, but I am not sure playing when I was 9 actually added to my wisdom of How to Play RPGs.
 

Congratulations. I NEVER SAID THAT THERE WAS ANY CORRELATION. That's something you have, for some bizarre reason, added in that I never said. So. Yup. There is no correlation between the turnover of players in the hobby and the number of bad DM's in the hobby. I totally, 100% agree.

You are right.

If the fact that most people only play D&D for a year (whether that's true or not) in no way proves or indicates that there a significant number of DMs are bad then why even mention it?
 

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