D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

I dunno about you, but, I used to be a very, very bad DM. All that raidroady crap? DMPC's? Overbearing story lines, etc? Yup, I've done it. That's what pretty much every DM does on the way to learning how to run a game. Which means that there is a long line of players out behind me that probably would call me a bad DM.

The difference between you and a bad DM is that you wanted to improve, and you learned from your mistakes. A bad DM doesn't do that. A bad DM relishes what you are describing above and continues to do it, because he's a jerk.

You were never a bad DM. You were simply a poor DM who improved from there.

I do agree with one point though. Bad DM's are bad because they are bad at the game. But, unless you figure that almost all DM's are good at the game when they first start out, then there has to be a pretty significant number of DM's out there that aren't very good. They might get good, if they stay in the hobby long enough AND they spend the time and have enough self-reflection to learn. But right now? Yeah, they're bad.

That was a typo. It was supposed to be, "Bad DM's are not bad because they are bad at the game."

 

[kermit4karate]

Ooh! What if they add a rule that says, "If you believe that 20% of players and DMs are bad, return this game"?

Wait -- was it 20% or 25%?? I think it started at 25% with the poll but quickly fell to 20 in this discussion. Now I think it's down to 10%.

Isn't that amazing!? We've already halved the number of bad DMs!

High five!!!

 

[Maxperson]

Tada! Done. There's my new house rule governing DM behavior. I recommend tattooing it on your butt.

That way when a new DM asks for advice you can just pull down your pants and moon them?

 

[Mort]

That was a typo. It was supposed to be, "Bad DM's are not bad because they are bad at the game."

Was wondering about that!

Because I agree, it's not about skill at the game, it's mostly about attitude.

The truly bad GMs I've encountered are bad because of their approach to GMing. Such as really adversarial, really condescending, really contemptuous toward their players - that sort of thing.

 

[Remathilis]

So anyone who is not great, or at least good, is bad. We can't just have decent, average GMs or GMs who make the occasional mistake, GMs who are learning so we give them advice and feedback. Kind of sounds like if you aren't a Matt Mercer or Brendan Lee Mulligan level of expertise you get tossed into the "bad" category.

Not at all. I'm saying a LOT of DMs overvalue their own greatness. Convinced they DON'T make mistakes, don't have anything new to learn, and are never the cause of problems in their own games. Frankly, the Dunning–Kruger effect is overrepresented amongst DMs. It's not the fact that they are just average, it's the fact they are just average and convinced they are equal to or better than Mercer or Mulligan and it's the players who do not understand their "genius".

 

[nevin]

Not at all. I'm saying a LOT of DMs overvalue their own greatness. Convinced they DON'T make mistakes, don't have anything new to learn, and are never the cause of problems in their own games. Frankly, the Dunning–Kruger effect is overrepresented amongst DMs. It's not the fact that they are just average, it's the fact they are just average and convinced they are equal to or better than Mercer or Mulligan and it's the players who do not understand their "genius".

I've never met more than a few of those DM's over the years. They exist but I don't think they are more than a percent or two of the DM population. DM's terrified to stretch the envelope because they've seen other great DM's are far more prevalant IME.

 

[Bae'zel]

Ooh! What if they add a rule that says, "If you believe that 20% of players and DMs are bad, return this game"?

Wait -- was it 20% or 25%?? I think it started at 25% with the poll but quickly fell to 20 in this discussion. Now I think it's down to 10%.

Isn't that amazing!? We've already halved the number of bad DMs!

High five!!!

To actually be constructive, advice should be more along the lines of:

“With any social activity, there’s a chance that you’ll be paired up with one or more people who deliberately or inadvertently create an unpleasant environment for you or someone else. It’s best to try to be aware of your surroundings and read the room. If you find yourself not having fun, you have two options: if you feel comfortable, speak up to someone and try to find a solution. If not, leave the game. You’re always allowed to leave. You are not a punching bag, test subject or therapist for other people in a game session. Acknowledge that and to hell with people who try to guilt trip you for considering leaving a group.”

There ya go.

 

[AlViking]

Not at all. I'm saying a LOT of DMs overvalue their own greatness. Convinced they DON'T make mistakes, don't have anything new to learn, and are never the cause of problems in their own games. Frankly, the Dunning–Kruger effect is overrepresented amongst DMs. It's not the fact that they are just average, it's the fact they are just average and convinced they are equal to or better than Mercer or Mulligan and it's the players who do not understand their "genius".

As far as I can know I've never encountered a DM who thought they were that good. Virtually all of them were just doing the best they could and wanted their players to have fun.

 

[kermit4karate]

Not at all. I'm saying a LOT of DMs overvalue their own greatness. Convinced they DON'T make mistakes, don't have anything new to learn, and are never the cause of problems in their own games. Frankly, the Dunning–Kruger effect is overrepresented amongst DMs. It's not the fact that they are just average, it's the fact they are just average and convinced they are equal to or better than Mercer or Mulligan and it's the players who do not understand their "genius".

No question, that happens sometimes. Inflated egos are EVERYWHERE, all around us, all the way around the table, outside the store and down the sidewalk. Ego is, I would contend, a problem here too. Self-importance is a problem all over the place.

The number that was bandied about for quite some time (already dozens of pages in this thread) was 25%, then 20%. That was what kinda started this particular tangent, that 25% of all DMs were objectively (how it was presented) bad. That was the main sticking point for me. I wasn't, and I don't think anyone else here was, suggesting that there aren't ANY bad DMs, but quite a few of us have said that we don't think you can legislate that badness away with more rules specifically restricting DM behavior.

I've also taken issue in this thread with what seems to be the sentiment that DMs are a bigger problem than players generally are. I disagree with that based on simple math. It isn't calculus. There are dramatically more players, and many are dramatically less experienced than the average DM. Those "bad" players have a far more negative effect on games than the less common bad DMs.

Take any table with 1 DM and 5 players. Statistically, using the (made up) 20% are bad figure, that means that there's 1 bad DM at every 5 tables; however, it also means there's 1 bad player at every table. That's far more detrimental to the future of the game than the bad DMs are.

 

[AlViking]

To actually be constructive, advice should be more along the lines of:

“With any social activity, there’s a chance that you’ll be paired up with one or more people who deliberately or inadvertently create an unpleasant environment for you or someone else. It’s best to try to be aware of your surroundings and read the room. If you find yourself not having fun, you have two options: if you feel comfortable, speak up to someone and try to find a solution. If not, leave the game. You’re always allowed to leave. You are not a punching bag, test subject or therapist for other people in a game session. Acknowledge that and to hell with people who try to guilt trip you for considering leaving a group.”

There ya go.

The 2024 books talk about mutual respect, fun for all and so on. Not specifically what you said but appropriate for playing and running the game.