D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

No, because they are kids and are supposed to be bad while they practice and learn. If your in college or pro and your fumbling catches more than completing them, you're a bad player.

No. You are potentially a good player who is bad at the game. Some of them, the ones who remain in gangs, abuse women, etc. are bad players.

Bad DMs are bad because they are bad at the game. They are bad because they ignore the social contract and punish players, railroad them, etc. They're jerks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not really no sorry. Maybe for burning wheel it is quite explicit, and hss no rooms for house rules, and so the system is very much take it as is or leave it ( which i dont necessarily see as a problem, to me is a bit like some video games are customisable and moddable, others arent ).
But for dnd where it is quite clear that can be house ruled and people can make it their own, and apparently outside of convention/ tournament games no two tables are the same due to differing house rules, I dont see how another rule being put in that can be house ruled away is an issue.
It seems to rely on an assumption that as long as the house rules are placed on player side options, it is okay, and players can take or leave it, but if it is DM facing suddenly players have more right to enforce said rules at the table, when the others they can't.

I don't recall any hard rules governing player behavior. Where have you seen those?

 

[Hussar]

No. You are potentially a good player who is bad at the game. Some of them, the ones who remain in gangs, abuse women, etc. are bad players.

Bad DMs are bad because they are bad at the game. They are bad because they ignore the social contract and punish players, railroad them, etc. They're jerks.

No. That's just... no.

There are tons of DM's out there that are bad at the game. Not because they are abusing women or remaining in gangs. Not every bad DM is a jerk. Most are just inexperienced or just haven't learned how to be good DM's yet.

Or do you believe that good DM's come out of the forehead of a player, fully formed, complete with all knowledge of how to run a good game?

I dunno about you, but, I used to be a very, very bad DM. All that raidroady crap? DMPC's? Overbearing story lines, etc? Yup, I've done it. That's what pretty much every DM does on the way to learning how to run a game. Which means that there is a long line of players out behind me that probably would call me a bad DM.

On the flipside, I've taken in so many gaming refugees from other tables who have just unbelievable horror stories. Or, even worse, they actually BOUGHT the crap that their DM was selling and presumed that that's the way the game should be.

I do agree with one point though. Bad DM's are bad because they are bad at the game. But, unless you figure that almost all DM's are good at the game when they first start out, then there has to be a pretty significant number of DM's out there that aren't very good. They might get good, if they stay in the hobby long enough AND they spend the time and have enough self-reflection to learn. But right now? Yeah, they're bad.

 

[Enrahim]

Not really no sorry. Maybe for burning wheel it is quite explicit, and hss no rooms for house rules, and so the system is very much take it as is or leave it ( which i dont necessarily see as a problem, to me is a bit like some video games are customisable and moddable, others arent ).
But for dnd where it is quite clear that can be house ruled and people can make it their own, and apparently outside of convention/ tournament games no two tables are the same due to differing house rules, I dont see how another rule being put in that can be house ruled away is an issue.
It seems to rely on an assumption that as long as the house rules are placed on player side options, it is okay, and players can take or leave it, but if it is DM facing suddenly players have more right to enforce said rules at the table, when the others they can't.

The issue I wanted to show was that GM facing rules and the home brew powers of D&D are in direct contradiction with each other. You cannot meaningfully introduce DM facing rules in D&D without compromising their ability to house rule.

In other words it is your premise "that can be house ruled away", that isn't capturing the neuance of the situation. Meaningful DM facing rules cannot be house ruled away in the same manner as player facing rules can.