D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[AlViking]

Half is close to my 45%, so I agree.

I'd say half of that 45% are not "bad" intentionally. There is the huge half of DMs that are just bad through inexperience, misjudgements and not thinking things through.

And most of the rest.....well, power does corrupt in nearly everything. This happens to people a lot....

So anything less than "average" is bad. Which is why I think the poll was meaningless.

 

[Remathilis]

Maybe I just don't think of things in those
terms? Why the need to judge and label it?

When kids play flag football, do you think, "Wow, those kids are really bad"?

No, because they are kids and are supposed to be bad while they practice and learn. If your in college or pro and your fumbling catches more than completing them, you're a bad player.

When you go out to dinner one night and there's a live band (They're good...for a local band.) do you think, "Wow, they're bad"?

Well you defeated your own argument by saying they are good. If they are good, I wouldn't say they are bad just because they are local. But I've been to enough local band gigs to know which ones I'll be buying their CDs and which I'll try to avoid if they are playing.

When your spouse creates a painting of the flowers in the front yard, do you think, "Wow, she's a bad artist"?

If she drew stick figures thought they are Van Goghs, I'd tell her not to quit her day job.

Etc., etc.

I don't think the evaluation matters most of the time.

You know, some people will watch any movie and say as long as they were entertained, it's a good movie regardless if it was made by Orson Wells or Uwe Bowles. McDonald's and Michelin 4-star are the same as long as they are full. And winning or losing at the Super Bowl doesn't matter as long as everyone has fun.

If that's your take, who am I to convince you different.

 

[Remathilis]

I may not care for the music from a death metal band so it's bad music for me, but they have their fans. In the meantime a truly bad musician, much like a truly bad DM, won't have an audience for long.

The road to greatness is littered with people who aren't as good as they think they are but nonetheless manage to keep doing what they do despite.

 

[kermit4karate]

No, because they are kids and are supposed to be bad while they practice and learn. If your in college or pro and your fumbling catches more than completing them, you're a bad player.

Well you defeated your own argument by saying they are good. If they are good, I wouldn't say they are bad just because they are local. But I've been to enough local band gigs to know which ones I'll be buying their CDs and which I'll try to avoid if they are playing.

If she drew stick figures thought they are Van Goghs, I'd tell her not to quit her day job.

You know, some people will watch any movie and say as long as they were entertained, it's a good movie regardless if it was made by Orson Wells or Uwe Bowles. McDonald's and Michelin 4-star are the same as long as they are full. And winning or losing at the Super Bowl doesn't matter as long as everyone has fun.

If that's your take, who am I to convince you different.

Good grief.

 

[gban007]

I hope the above helps you see why this is usefull for making the experience smoother and more customisable - not just "feeling" difdifferent

Not really no sorry. Maybe for burning wheel it is quite explicit, and hss no rooms for house rules, and so the system is very much take it as is or leave it ( which i dont necessarily see as a problem, to me is a bit like some video games are customisable and moddable, others arent ).
But for dnd where it is quite clear that can be house ruled and people can make it their own, and apparently outside of convention/ tournament games no two tables are the same due to differing house rules, I dont see how another rule being put in that can be house ruled away is an issue.
It seems to rely on an assumption that as long as the house rules are placed on player side options, it is okay, and players can take or leave it, but if it is DM facing suddenly players have more right to enforce said rules at the table, when the others they can't.

 

[Hussar]

Hey, what's with all the absolutes? Don't drive this to poles without nuance. Please.

Note something - you yourself were asserting that there's a pretty high turnover rate in players, that a player's career in the game might be as short as a year.

How much expertise in what constitutes good or bad gaming, or good and bad GMing practices, does one get in a year - their very first year? At that point you've probably only played one game, under one GM! How much are you going to know? Like, one year after I started gaming, I was 13*! 13-year-olds are not known for their depth of understanding of... pretty much anything. If I wasn't having fun, I don't know that I, or anyone like me, could be trusted to accurately identify the reasons for discontent.

Around here, we talk incessantly about things that do and don't work for us, but we are not representative of the gaming world, and should not assume everyone else is so discerning.



*Not exactly true - I'd played some Tunnels and Trolls previously, but I am not sure playing when I was 9 actually added to my wisdom of How to Play RPGs.

But, the same is for DM's. Which means that there is a signficant number of gamers who run games who are not very good at it. Not out of malice or being bad people but, just inexperience. While you as 13 year old player might not be able to accurately identify the reasons for discontent, how many 13 year old DM's were fantastic right from the get go?

If the fact that most people only play D&D for a year (whether that's true or not) in no way proves or indicates that there a significant number of DMs are bad then why even mention it?

Ok, please, please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said "most" people. I said lots. Now, those lots of people ALSO include DM's. Or, are you trying to claim that no one EVER DM's without playing for more than a year first? That no one ever DM's without extensive player experience first?

So, there is a significant portion of the fandom that comes in, stays around for a fairly short time (say 6 months - 2 years), maybe runs a game or two and then leaves. And, we get the endless cycle of new players coming in which mostly match the number of older players leaving.

And, again, seriously? 20% is too high? What about DMing makes them magical? Pretty much 20% of ANY group of people is not good at whatever it is they are doing. Certainly that's true in any amateur hobby. But, ok. Fair enough. Let's say it's 10%. I'm flexible. That still means that a significant portion of gamers out there run into lots of bad DM's. Why is this hard to believe?

 

[gban007]

So you want the rules to offer guidelines? Like the ones we already have where the DMG has a section on ensuring fun for all, having mutual respect and setting expectations? It's all good advice. Unfortunately no matter what we write in text, the problem is that bad GMs are going to treat it like the pirate code...
View attachment 416951

No, I'm saying I dont see the problem with rulesets putting more guidance in, or even explicit rules binding on the DM.
I already said in my post (albeit not the most well formatted) that I dont expect it to address the problem with bad DMs, as you say, they will ignore it anyway.
But if may help new DMs of a system have a clearer idea of how to run the system in question.

 

[kermit4karate]

Not really no sorry. Maybe for burning wheel it is quite explicit, and hss no rooms for house rules, and so the system is very much take it as is or leave it ( which i dont necessarily see as a problem, to me is a bit like some video games are customisable and moddable, others arent ).
But for dnd where it is quite clear that can be house ruled and people can make it their own, and apparently outside of convention/ tournament games no two tables are the same due to differing house rules, I dont see how another rule being put in that can be house ruled away is an issue.
It seems to rely on an assumption that as long as the house rules are placed on player side options, it is okay, and players can take or leave it, but if it is DM facing suddenly players have more right to enforce said rules at the table, when the others they can't.

Interesting! You make a good point. Sure, add those house rules that restrict DM behavior, and we'll just house rule them away. POOF! Problem solved.

 

[kermit4karate]

And, again, seriously? 20% is too high?

Um, yes? Isn't this like the tenth time one of us has said it?? It's a number pulled out of thin air. I do not agree with it.

But here's another number for you.... I say 92% chance you'll question why we think 20% is too high again.

 

[Lanefan]

An inexperienced DM is ony bad if they don't or won't learn from mistakes made.