Rant: Your best friend is a munchkin!

[Psionicist]

I have noticed something here over the past 2 years, namely the fact that either (1) 95% of the EN World users have problems with power gaming in their group or (2) 95% of the EN World users are power gamers.

Because ALWAYS when I read info on new systems, rules questions, info on a new spells, prestige class, splat books whatever there are at least 1 - usually way more members - who have a knack of finding weak spots and how to abuse the rules, and writes something like

"But DUH! That is overly broken! If you do X, Y and Z you can take feat A, B, C and skill D at level K. Add one-two levels of class W... blah blah blah... Cast the spell combo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... THAT IS SO GOD DANG POWERFUL YOU MORON!". It might be the nicest of threads, about something with great roleplaying potential, lots of interesting stuff and so on. It can also be a comment to the "Axe Master" prestige class.

My question is: So what? Are you a power gamer? Do you know a powergamer who would do this? Why would anyone actually do this? What's the problem really? Whats YOUR problem?

Don't get me wrong here, I value balance as everyone else, BUT I see no point what so ever in creating a checklist for creating a SLAYER character, and worry about it and complaining about how bad things are because it's "broken". Maybe it's just my group but we value roleplaying more than rollplaying and can without problems handle immortal level 1 characters equally balanced too level 1 elven bards created with standard rules, 75 points total (not point buy, the total of all 6 stats added together), with role playing penalties and such of course.

Why cannot your group? Obviously it can't because of all these replies. And there are LOTS of replies. Just check the rules and house rules forum.

...

Munchkins

 

[DMaple]

You sure this isn't a troll not a rant?

Can't say our group has a problem with Powergamers either.

That's not to say people in our group don't powergame on occasions, just that when they do it doesn't cause a problem.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I am a power gamer. I make no bones about it. Since I'm the GM and designer I happen to think that's a good thing. I've gamed under GMs who were real role-players and they did the NPC interaction part beautifully only to have to resort to dues ex machina in combat, either for us or for the bad guys depending on who was getting overwhelmed.

As for complaining about stuff that is "obviously" broken: I think the complaints have merit but the tone of the complaints are annoying and rude.

Example:

Good: "I think shuriken do too much damage even at one base point. A ranger can be powergamed to do over 400 points of damage at 20th level against a favored enemy with them, granted those would be nice to-hit rolls. Also there is the issue of assasins and getting three kinds of poison at once. A solution would be to rule that shuriken do 0-1 point of damage with the weapon doing no "bonus" damage (due to magic or poison or whatever) if a 0 is rolled"

Bad: OMFG! What moron came up with shuriken? Don't tell me you use them in your game!?!?! Cripes! Was this thing even playtested? This is just more evidence that WotC is a bunch of money-grubbing hacks!"


Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with powergaming. The kind of person someone is matters more than the kind of gamer they are. Rotten people make for rotten fun.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'm a on and off power gamer and I see nothing wrong with power gaming in character design. I think people who power game in game too much with the various bucket of slugs and whirlwind/great cleave combos and the frequent perfect ambushed with x and y tactic etc get anoying.

But hey you should build an effective character if I was in a job where I could get killed you bet can bet your last GP that I'd be training in the right talents to maximize my survivability.

 

[psionotic]

with all apologies to The Life of Brian:

"I'm a munchkin, and so is my wife!"

 

[Darkness]

I don't have problems with powergamers in my group... People who constantly want to play evil characters - yes. But not powergamers.

Myself, I'm probably a pretty good powergamer since I'm a math fanatic, but I don't usually use my m4d sk3311z to min/max characters. Also, I'm always the DM and so I don't usually need to min/max anything as I can just use whatever I need to.

 

[Henry@home]

What you are observing is the fanaticism of players who enjoy playing with the rules of the game the same way that sports fans spout off their favorite players' statistics. Many of the community members here are gamers with many years' experience at many different game systems, and who enjoy "number crunching" in their games for its own sake, as well as to improve their games.

I will say, Psionicist, that from a game designers' point of view, role-playing restrictions should NEVER be used to balance a game mechanical rule - because each group's playing styles differ tremendously.

One good example was the Swashbuckler kit from the 2E Complete Fighter's handbook. It gave free specializations with certain weapons, a bonus to AC, a bonus to reaction rolls, and several free useful skills. What was their penalty for these bonuses?

Trouble seeks out the Swashbuckler. This is something the DM will have to play very carefully if the Swashbuckler is to be as hindered as all the other Warrior Kits. When there's another Swashbuckler around, intent on proving he's the best swordsman inthe world, it's the PC Swashbuckler he settles upon and challenges. When a certain young lady is being pursued by the king's guards, who are intent on stopping her from revealing secrets in her possession, it is the swashbuckler she stumbles across when fleeing. When a prince is too drunk to attend his own coronation, miraculously, he looks just like the swashbuckler. Life conspires to make things difficult for the Swashbuckler, and the DM should always throw just a little more good-natured bad luck at that Warrior Kit than any other.

Have you ever known a group of PC's this stuff NEVER happens to? How many PC groups are the only ones in earshot when the messenger with the knife stuck in his chest whispers his dying message? This was an exemplary Kit to show Roleplaying Checks and Balances that failed. Given that a party is going to get into oddball trouble anyway, most DM's are unlikely to throw EXTRA trouble their way, because the trouble they're throwing is trouble enough.

 

[Draco Argentum]

Leave power-gamers and min/maxers alone. Unless they're ruining the groups fun let them power-game. As long as they don't go to sleep during rp parts it should be fine.

At least they're more useful than max/minners who become deadweight the moment combat starts. (Unless your campain is all rp.)

 

[DM with a vengence]

I'll share a little story

Last Friday I was playing with a group of 8th graders and their DM, the latin teacher. It was a campaign losely based on Dark Age England, where you could be a Celtic Barbarian, a Satanic Wizard, or a Christian Paladin. Not very many rules, because there were 10 people and one PHB, and no one pays attention to things like spells per day or caster level. I rolled up a 4th level Paladin because nobody wanted to be good, and went with the Spirited Charge feat path.

I wandering around in the woods when I see a sleep walking man muttering "The devil hath given me unlimited power, the devil hath given me unlimited power..." Being a good Paladin, I detect evil, charge, and smite.
"Okay that will be 3d8+27 points of damage," I say.
The only sound was that of various jaws smacking into desks, and then the latin teacher says, "No, that's too much damage, I'll roll a d12"
Of course the devil showed up and took the poor loser to hell, and the latin teacher explained very carefully that you shouldn't leave any loopholes in wishes, because they'll always bite you on the ass..

And the moral of the story is, rules don't really matter, unless one person plays by them and no one else does, but that can be fixed, and pie is good.

 

[reapersaurus]

Last Friday I was playing with a group of 8th graders and their DM, the latin teacher. It was a campaign losely based on Dark Age England, where you could be a Celtic Barbarian, a Satanic Wizard, or a Christian Paladin.

umm.. WHAT?!