Rapiers

[Lackhand]

Soldiers and knights were trained to parry with the flat of the blade specifically to avoid chipping the edge.

Hmm. Not how I would phrase it. I mean, a hard parry with the flat is the quickest way to lose a weapon -- deflection, though, and you're golden.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The main problem I run into is every time I think "Rapier" I think Swashbuckling or Pirates, and Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" Featurette. When I think "Bastard Sword" I think Conan and his bad ass sword, I think Cloud and his sword bigger than all outdoors, The kind of sword that only Arnold Schwarzenegger or an anime character could ever hold... not to mention use at all.

 

[White-Wolf]

I agree with Danny Alcatraz; Movies are terrible examples of how medieval combat worked. Blades snapping from a single blow from another blade just *did not happen*. Blades snapping after hours of combat when someone struck a rock hard, or wedged it into a tree stump and pulled just the wrong way to free it, that might happen.

More often, swords would become bent and have to be straightened, usually accomplished on the battlefield by bracing the sword against the ground and stepping on the bent portion until the sword was usable again. Soldiers and knights were trained to parry with the flat of the blade specifically to avoid chipping the edge.

Swords were flexible but also quite easy to brake. I cant comment on if it would break when two fighters would meet in the bind, but their are midevil manuscripts that show knights breaking an opponents weapon under his foot.

Also about the parry, I don think its as simple to say that all or most parried with the flat.

In German longsword 14 century you might parry with the flat, but the basic tenet it so kill the other guy with a very direct and effective attack. when you swing, the opponent might block you, but your more worried about the kill. It helps to meet on the weak of the blade though. that saved the swords stress, but the swords tend to meet edge on edge quite often.

German longswords tended to be very wide and beefy.

Now Italian longsword fighting, I think you would see alot more parrying in general, and i know of one move in particular that you parry with the flat of the blade.

Italian longswords tended to be thinner and lighter (but still very much a longsword)

Different schools, periods, and nations fought differently from each other, and makes things very complicated. and the sword styles varied throughout history.

 

[Switchblade]

Strangely enough longswords weren't always used blade against blade, there was a school of fighting where knights were taught to use the sword "upside down", gripping the blade and using the blade as the shaft of a warhammer, with the crossguard as the head as blades were ineffective against plate armour. There are several existing woodcuttings in old manuals demonstrating this.

 

[Zander]

I was just curious how rapiers in the real world would actually hold up against other weapons that are much larger, i.e. bastard swords...

I do historical European swordsmanship as a martial art and was sparring with a bastard sword (actually, Italian longsword) against a swordsman with a rapier a couple of weeks ago. The rapier swordsman held up very well indeed. Rapiers grant their user an extended reach making it extremely difficult for me to get my opponent without him getting me as well. The only time I landed a solid cut on him, he thrust me just under the collar bone on my right side. I doubt his thrust would have been fatal but you never know.

Had my opponent been using a bastard sword (longsword) one handed, I would have targeted his leading hand. But with a rapier, the hand is largely protected making this a much less effective approach. The only thing I found that worked well was a German longsword technique called Krumpau (spelling?) which is a windscreen wiper type action designed to bat the opponent's sword away. This allowed me to approach but rarely gave me time to attack as well. The rapier swordsman just moved back when I used this method to move in.

So the short answer to your question is that a rapier swordsman can fare pretty well against an opponent with a heavier weapon. The idea that a heavy weapon is going to break a rapier isn't true.

 

[Choranzanus]

The idea that a heavy weapon is going to break a rapier isn't true.

Actually there are many historical examples of such weapons breaking some of them famous (such as the assasination of Albrecht von Wallenstein). This must be even more true of rapiers which are intended purely for duelling.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I do historical European swordsmanship as a martial art and was sparring with a bastard sword (actually, Italian longsword) against a swordsman with a rapier a couple of weeks ago. The rapier swordsman held up very well indeed. Rapiers grant their user an extended reach making it extremely difficult for me to get my opponent without him getting me as well. The only time I landed a solid cut on him, he thrust me just under the collar bone on my right side. I doubt his thrust would have been fatal but you never know.

Had my opponent been using a bastard sword (longsword) one handed, I would have targeted his leading hand. But with a rapier, the hand is largely protected making this a much less effective approach. The only thing I found that worked well was a German longsword technique called Krumpau (spelling?) which is a windscreen wiper type action designed to bat the opponent's sword away. This allowed me to approach but rarely gave me time to attack as well. The rapier swordsman just moved back when I used this method to move in.

So the short answer to your question is that a rapier swordsman can fare pretty well against an opponent with a heavier weapon. The idea that a heavy weapon is going to break a rapier isn't true.

I posted under white-wolf by accident. Its an old account. oops.

Thats a very cool story. Right now I am in German longsword. Our school teaches both Italian and German, and i cant wait to try Italian after i learn more about the German sword fighting. I have been itching to freeplay against a rapier, or someone with a shield or two weapon fighting.

If it was me, i would try to lock his blade with your cross guard (not sure if that ever happens in Italian but its common in German), but without actually having any experience i don't know if it would work or not.

also your talk about Krumpau has given me an idea (i know too late for that but) use a krumpau to bat the weapon away, then punch him in the face with the end of the sword (also called the pummal) then you should really be in a close position to do do a zornhou from vomtag with a back step (spelling on all counts?) this is assuming your doing a krumpau from the left side to the right..

anyway, good story.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Doesn't really add much to the debate/answer the question... But... I have always simply renamed the Rapier a Side-Sword. Since I personally like it more, and it seems a more reasonable weapon for use in all-around combat.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Strangely enough longswords weren't always used blade against blade, there was a school of fighting where knights were taught to use the sword "upside down", gripping the blade and using the blade as the shaft of a warhammer, with the crossguard as the head as blades were ineffective against plate armour. There are several existing woodcuttings in old manuals demonstrating this.

go half sword! (a style of German longsword).

 

[med stud]

Rapiers were standard issue weapons in the Swedish army in late 17th - early 18th century (probably later as well but after that the Swedish army sucked). The Swedes focused on a very aggressive melee- oriented combat style where rapiers and bayonettes were integral parts so it was important that the weapons were functional. During that time, though, armours were pretty much out.

Picture of a rapier from that period (not big, but the proportions are there):

In a fight with no armour, a rapier like that would probably hold up against a heavier sword. Not that most swords were that heavy anyway, 3-4 kg seems to be the heaviest a sword was if it was intended for combat.