Rapiers

[Dannyalcatraz]

Strangely enough longswords weren't always used blade against blade, there was a school of fighting where knights were taught to use the sword "upside down",

Ah, the Mordschlag (The Murder Blow)! It was less a "school" than a maneuver.

And yes, a solid blow to the head (the Mordschlag's primary target) was indeed sufficient to concuss someone, rendering them vulnerable to a killstroke like slicing a major vein or piercing the eyeslot.

 

[Zander]

Actually there are many historical examples of such weapons breaking some of them famous (such as the assasination of Albrecht von Wallenstein). This must be even more true of rapiers which are intended purely for duelling.

True. I should have clarified that the idea of breaking a rapier held in a guard such as Capoferro's or Fabris' prima with one stroke of a longsword isn't realistic. Many gamers with no experience of historical swordplay imagine that you can simply cut through a held out rapier blade with a longsword, perhaps because they picture a modern fencing blade. To break a blade - rapier or longsword - it needs to be braced. This can happen when the blade is stepped on, grabbed, locked or impaled in something/someone.

 

[pawsplay]

I have to say the average level of sword knowledge and general weapon nerdness among geeks has greatly improved over the last decade. Very gratifying.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

indeed. Also I think the knowledge is more accessible then it used to be. more and more documents are being translated, and authentic sword fighting is at the cusp of breaking into the US where before you had to study in Europe. Thats not to say you couldn't study in the US, it was just harder to find and probably expensive.

in addition the equipment is cheaper now and accessible due to the internet and theirs more instructional manuals today then there where 10-20 years ago.

go knowledge!

 

[Dragonwriter]

What most people seem to be doing in this tread is confusing the rapier with cut-and-thrust weapons, which were a different class of blades. The rapier was a court weapon and was used for thrusting only. The majority of the blade was not dangerous and would only really serve to annoy your opponent if you slashed them with it. The tip is the dangerous part, which makes it a thrust-only blade.
Cut-and-Thrust is a different style of weapon. They were considerably heavier and were employed regularly on battlefields (after a certain time period), unlike the rapier.

Movies are a terrible representation of legitimate swordplay, except for some I can think of (Excalibur is the first that comes to mind...). Don't look to them for guidance. And historically, a rapier would not cross blades with a longsword or axe.

 

[Jaeger]

Here are some articles of interest:

On parrying a longsword...
http://salvatorfabris.com/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml


Another one on the rapier in general with more article links...
http://salvatorfabris.com/SectionRapier.shtml




.

 

[pawsplay]

What most people seem to be doing in this tread is confusing the rapier with cut-and-thrust weapons, which were a different class of blades. The rapier was a court weapon and was used for thrusting only.

A thrust only weapon is called an estoc, not a rapier. Rapiers, while used mainly for thrusting, are edged weapons. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "court weapon." Rapiers were the standard type of sword in many times and places.

 

[Rechan]

I started taking fencing lessons (and then the class was cancelled due to instructor illness). One of the Fencer's best defenses is, well, he moves. Don't put your weapon in the way of the attack, get out of the way!

But yeah, a good "Fighting rapier" is probably more akin to a US Civil War saber.

 

[taliesin15]

The rapier is pretty much an invention of the early Modern period--I don't know of any references to them before late 15th century Italy and Spain. I've heard one expert say that rapiers were good for piercing in between small joints in plate armor, but most say that rapiers weren't used in major field battles. Civilians AND military personnel tended to carry them in urban areas, sometimes further than that. Once you have firearms, heavy armor is pointless for day to day use, and firearms really start being used around the same time as rapiers. Though we can start another longer thread on how ineffective early firearms were (I read one naval military historian claim that early ship cannons were notoriously weak, and were at first mainly fired in the general direction of the sails, in hopes of catching them on fire), needless to say the rapier was a niche market, and by the way something of a status symbol. A necessary part of a gentleman's gear in being presented at Court. Mainly Aristocrats and wannabe Aristocrats. The only Commoner having one would likely be a lord's lackey or say the players using fake ones on stage at the Globe Theatre and the like.

FWIW, my campaign is early medieval or earlier in flavor and there are absolutely no rapiers, epees, sabres, or firearms for that matter.

 

[Thunderfoot]

I'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned that the traditional rapier was also very RARELY used by itself, most often a second weapon in the off hand, usually a Main Gauche, a Parrying Dagger or a sword breaker was utilized to deflect and thwart incoming blows from an opponent's sword. By the time the Rapier made its place on the world scene swords were not in great use in military conflicts as primary weapons, except by officers. Usually they were used as a counter-point to the new practice of pikes, pole arms and later bayonets on firearms used by the 'regular' infantry.

RW rapiers from the Renaissance were produced all over Europe but the best were probably the great basket hilted pieces of art made in Italy. By historical examples the blade was approximately 1 1/2 wide with a razor sharp point (visit your local metropolitan meusem for a very close visual.)

Hollywood examples are hold overs from the 'golden' age of film where most actors still did their own stunts. The swords were flimsy to reduce the amount and severity of accidents that might occur on set. Unfortunately as many of these films are classic and have great battle choreography they were used as examples and the "wimpy, limp-wristed" fencing epee that was used instead of more traditional rapiers graduated to 'real' sword in the eyes of movie makers. No one ever said Hollywood was correct....