Rate the Star Wars Movies

[Morrus]

Fans of the prequels very much do exist

Literally not what I said. Read it again, please.

 

[Jester David]

Literally not what I said. Read it again, please.

at
The author or the first link ranks Revenge of the Sith as their favourite,
I do think that in 20 years the 25yo who were introduced to Star Wars via the prequels might view them with the same nostalgia. And right now they might well enjoy those films like I enjoyed A New Hope prior to the prequels.
Because ANH isn't that good. Not on paper. It has terrible dialogue, poor pacing, flat characters, and is tropey as . It uses plots from radio and film serials that were already three decades old that point. It's good largely because or nostalgia. And you can see how well Star Wars does in places with out that nostalgia by looking at China, where it is crushed at the box office.

 

[billd91]

at
The author or the first link ranks Revenge of the Sith as their favourite,
I do think that in 20 years the 25yo who were introduced to Star Wars via the prequels might view them with the same nostalgia. And right now they might well enjoy those films like I enjoyed A New Hope prior to the prequels.
Because ANH isn't that good. Not on paper. It has terrible dialogue, poor pacing, flat characters, and is tropey as . It uses plots from radio and film serials that were already three decades old that point. It's good largely because or nostalgia. And you can see how well Star Wars does in places with out that nostalgia by looking at China, where it is crushed at the box office.

No, the prequels won't be viewed the same - for most kids of the 90s and 2000s I know, they fall short of that mark already. There's too much competition and they've already been eclipsed by better storytelling in The Clone Wars and Rebels animated series.

The original trilogy looms large and it's not because of nostalgia. It's because in the realm of what was possible in cinema, Star Wars came along and blew the roof off the dump. How many special effects-laden movies make use of Industrial Light and Magic or Skywalker Sound? Star Wars generated a whole branch of the movie-making industry full of ground-breaking stuff, including THX and Pixar.

 

[Jester David]

No, the prequels won't be viewed the same - for most kids of the 90s and 2000s I know, they fall short of that mark already. There's too much competition and they've already been eclipsed by better storytelling in The Clone Wars and Rebels animated series.

The original trilogy looms large and it's not because of nostalgia. It's because in the realm of what was possible in cinema, Star Wars came along and blew the roof off the dump. How many special effects-laden movies make use of Industrial Light and Magic or Skywalker Sound? Star Wars generated a whole branch of the movie-making industry full of ground-breaking stuff, including THX and Pixar.

Honestly, what my son (currently 8yo) will probably be most nostalgic for regarding Star Wars won’t be any of those things.
It will be the Lego Star Wars shorts and series. Freemaker Adventures and Yoda Chronicles...

 

[delericho]

Even the kids who liked the prequels don't rank them as classics in the way we did the originals. When they're our age, they won't be reminiscing about the Star Wars prequels with rose-covered glasses in the way we do the OT. They'll be reminiscing about something, but it won't be the Star Wars prequels. Those three films never had that cultural zeitgeist.

My guess for that "something else" would be Harry Potter - the first film in that series hit in 2001, between TPM and AotC.

Of course, JKR is now running into trouble with her own set of prequels. Maybe in twenty years Disney will buy that IP, too?

 

[Zardnaar]

Never got into Harry Potter. Shrugs.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There will undoubtedly be fans of the prequels, but the difference to the original Star Wars then and Star Wars today is that there is much more competition that is also succesful, across all media. It leads to much more segmentation. Someone will be nostalgic for something... But they might all have different IPs they will be nostalgic for.

 

[Imaculata]

We're going to have to agree to vehemently disagree on that point. Rey's ancestry being nobodies was a fantastic choice and I hope Abrams doesn't track back on it. It's about time one of the Force-using protagonists embodies the return of the Force to being the birthright of anybody and not just a Skywalker.

My issue with it, is that it is no answer at all. The first movie sets up an expectation that there is a reason for Rey's powers... and then the conclusion to that plot hook is that there is no answer... I don't find that very compelling writing. It is a twist of a sort for sure... but was that really the best they could come up with?

And this movie flipped the table each time.
Suddenly we're out of our comfort zone and unhappy.

(And then people complain about every Marvel movie being the same.)

Sometimes when you flip the table, all you're left with is a mess.

So a double Anakin who only had a mom?
But... doesn't that just create more questions? (How? Why?) And it makes her a weird child of destiny/ chosen one.

I think I like that angle better than what they went with. Yes, it creates more questions, which could be explored in movie 3.

Why? We know more about him than Snoke and he's demonstrated a willingness to kill his parents and butcher innocents. What more do we need?

Because I feel he still hasn't made the journey to the darkside yet. TFA leaves a little doubt hanging.

Why does the origin of her Force powers have to be known? Literally no other Jedi apart from Luke has an origin for their Force powers (as there's no other Jedi bloodlines). We don't know the origin of Palpatine's power. Or Yoda's. Or Mace Windu's, and he was probably the most powerful Jedi we've seen on screen.

Because in the trailer to TLJ they make a big deal out of it, and it would explain why she is able to use her powers so quickly in TFA. In a way they set it up already, but didn't follow up on it. I think it is an interesting angle to her character.

It needs to be good vs evil.

Why? Everyone keeps criticizing Disney Star Wars about never doing anything new, and repeating beats from previous movies. And yet here is a chance to truly do something unexpected, and you don't want them to do it? Why?

Having Rey fall and be saved by Ren and the Resistance also makes the end of the trilogy focused on redeeming a fallen Jedi, which was basically the plot of Return of the Jedi. Plus, it basically means Rey is a damsel that has to be saved (albeit from herself) and makes her less morally strong than Luke and Leia, since she wasn't able to resist the pull of the Dark Side. (Plus it pretty much negates Rey's status the first real female protagonist in Star Wars by making her the end villain of the Trilogy.)

I don't think any of this is true. Having to be saved from yourself does not make you a damsel in distress. Having her succumb to the dark side does not make her morally less strong than previous characters, because the previous movies have already set up that the darkside can be very tempting, especially when it exploits feelings of fear and grief. Giving Rey a weakness in her character is good writing in my opinion, and the only way to get away from the feeling that she is a Mary Sue character. I also don't think it reduces her protagonist status. In fact, it makes her take central stage more. One of my issues with TLJ, was that it didn't seem to know what to do with Rey and her journey. It didn't seem to know how she fit into the story.

The end goal of the movie should be about stopping him.

It could have been about stopping Snoke, or the First Order as a whole.

Which is still weird as we know nothing of the Knights of Ren beyond their name. We don't really have a reason to care about them beyond them being a bunch of lesser Kylo Rens. The most interesting thing about them is really the mystery, and when you fill than in they will inevitably be less cool.
Think about it: they're former students of Luke who turned on the academy with Ren. They're basically the fallen Jedi equivalent of Crabbe and Goyle.

I think they could and should have tied them to Luke's plot in TLJ. It would have given Luke and Rey a common enemy to fight, and allowed them to better explain why Luke is in exile, while building up the threat of Kylo Ren. The big fight with Snoke's guards was nice and all, but really something they should have saved for the third movie.

Disney really should have thought all of this out before making any of the movies.

 

[trappedslider]

As someone who grew up with the prequels, I vastly prefer them over the OT. The awkward romance dialogue between Anakin and Padme is believable for me because that's how it was with my first few relationships growing up and in some cases it's still awkward lol. When I first watched ANH back in the mid 90s my reaction to the fight between Obi and Vader was basically, "that's it? oh okay."

RotS was the frist movie I camped out for.

 

[Eltab]

I'm a child of the nineties. Granted, I'm not that fond of the prequels, but being that fond of Star Wars after the 80's is not really feasible. The OT was groundbreaking and highly influential, but that is the problem, everything made after the OT is heavily influenced by it, where once it was a fresh new thing, it barely stands apart by now.

By the time the original trilogy was re-released in the mid nineties, I had been bombarded by countless parodies, shot outs and homages of it to really care. -And lets not go into the empire strikes back main plotwist that has been spoiled to death-. Then the Phantom menace came out and I got to watch something that truly stood out. By proxy it also gave me a reason to care about the OT as well. Suddenly I knew I wanted to watch the originals, to see what comes after that. Back to today, you won't see a single thing of SW parafernalia, no toys, no nothing, just a couple of old Playstation games and the six movies in Blu-ray in a single package, six movies together as a whole that I hold fondly.

I was a child during the 1970s and I approve this* message.

* suitably edited - who is Seinfeld?

 

[Jester David]

I think I like that angle better than what they went with. Yes, it creates more questions, which could be explored in movie 3.

Yes, because JJ Abrams is the filmmaker we want answering questions.

Because I feel he still hasn't made the journey to the darkside yet. TFA leaves a little doubt hanging.

Not really.
He killed his father in TFA, completing his journey to the Dark Side. TLJ had Rey question again if he could return, and instead he doubled down and slew his master so he and Rey could rule together.
He's far, far beyond the pale.

He literally spaced his own mom! What else does he need to do to be evil? Dropkick a baby while eating a puppy?

Because in the trailer to TLJ they make a big deal out of it,

Surprise! The trailer lied. It was misdirection.
Here's the thing: trailers aren't made by the filmmakers. They're advertising and made by companies that specialise in marketing. This is like complaining you were misled by the poster...

The first time the DIRECTOR of the film saw the trailer was the day it premiered. And prior to that he was telling people not to watch the trailers, fearing they'd spoil too much.

and it would explain why she is able to use her powers so quickly in TFA. In a way they set it up already, but didn't follow up on it. I think it is an interesting angle to her character.

Again, that's not really thing in TFA. Ren asks her who trained her, but we as an audience know: no one. She's just strong in the Force. At no point does the film ask us to question who her parents are—her parent's aren't even mentioned—or the source of her powers. Even when we see Rey abandoned that's not refereed to as her parents, just the people she's waiting for.
The speculation? That was all on us.
We the audience.
The Star Wars fans who know that Star Wars is famous for parental plot twists. So when we saw the seeds for one, we all leapt into speculation. And then disappointing ourselves because the movie didn't stoop to cheap fanservice and have her as Obi Wan's daughter or Mace Windu's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

Why? Everyone keeps criticizing Disney Star Wars about never doing anything new, and repeating beats from previous movies. And yet here is a chance to truly do something unexpected, and you don't want them to do it? Why?

First, people complained about that after The Force Awakens and Rogue One. And then we got The Last Jedi. And half of TLJ was something new.
So then people complained harder. Rey not being a special chosen one related to a main character. The hero's plans failing. Snoak not being around for the full trilogy. Poe being "wrong" about his leader. Previously unseen Force powers. Not repeating beats from past movies. Not having a lightsaber duel.
People don't want new. They want new in a comfortable and safe way that fits their expectations.

Second, the fallen hero being redeemed in the final act ISN'T ING NEW! We saw that with Vader. New is having Kylo Ren be irredeemable and put down like a dog.

Also... shocker here: Star Wars is for kids. Kids are a huge audience. They'll never do an R-rated Star Wars. Even the streaming shows on Disney+ will be less edgy than the Network Marvel shows and not approach the Netflix Marvel stuff.
Given it's for kids, you don't get deep into the weeds of philosophy for a kid's movie. You can't have an introspective metaphysical climax where Ben Solo redeems a fallen Rey without his lightsaber will have a theater full of bored kids.

I don't think any of this is true. Having to be saved from yourself does not make you a damsel in distress.

Is she not in control of her own destiny and requires someone else to give her back her life and restore her agency? Yes? Then she's a damsel in distress.
Rey needs to be an active part of her own life. When the most important character to Rey's story is someone else, then you've taken away her agency and made her a supporting character in her own story. If "Rey's story" is really "the story of how Kylo Ren saved Rey" then the movie has made a terrible, terrible mistake.

Having her succumb to the dark side does not make her morally less strong than previous characters, because the previous movies have already set up that the darkside can be very tempting, especially when it exploits feelings of fear and grief. Giving Rey a weakness in her character is good writing in my opinion, and the only way to get away from the feeling that she is a Mary Sue character. I also don't think it reduces her protagonist status. In fact, it makes her take central stage more. One of my issues with TLJ, was that it didn't seem to know what to do with Rey and her journey. It didn't seem to know how she fit into the story.

And yet Luke, being the Gary Stu of Gary Stus (despite NEVER being called that by people who call Rey a Mary Sue) pretty easily resisted the call of the Dark Side. Having Rey falls inherently means she is less strong than Luke. Especially as Luke required the threat on Leia to come close to falling and Anakin needed a lifetime of temptation climaxing in the desire to save Padme. Rey has... what? What attachment drives her to fall? There's no attachment.
Just having her succumb to the temptation of temptation makes her super effing weak.

And, again, it would mean she is literally repeating Anakin's character arc by being a desert kid inherently strong in the Force who succumbs to the Dark Side and has to be redeemed.

It could have been about stopping Snoke, or the First Order as a whole.

I've seen that movie before.
That was Return of the Jedi.

Plus... you kinda don't want the First Order stopped. They did that with the Empire and it just means no more easy stories, as you need a villain. I hope they learn their lesson after having to have The Force Awakens undo the victory of the Rebels and have the First Order around in some fashion, albeit humbled and weaker.

I think they could and should have tied them to Luke's plot in TLJ. It would have given Luke and Rey a common enemy to fight, and allowed them to better explain why Luke is in exile, while building up the threat of Kylo Ren. The big fight with Snoke's guards was nice and all, but really something they should have saved for the third movie.

I don't think the film would have been much improved by a fight on the planet they're training (and just make people wonder how they found Luke).
Plus, a present common enemy would eliminate Luke's character arc of deciding to willingly return to the fight. By bringing the fight to him, it negates any choice he would make. And if it doesn't... well then we end up with the exact same movie, only with a lightsaber fight added on for cheap thrills. It's literally superflous.

But, again, why do you care about the Knights of Ren? Have you been given any reason to care?
Reiterating my point, realistically, the "Knights of Ren" are a bunch of former 12 and 13 year old padawans who participated in the lightsaber equivalent of a school shooting and decided to give themselves a scary pompous name like the edgelords they are.
They're not badass elite mercenaries. They're not a highly trained force of darksiders hand picked by Kylo Ren to serve as his enforcers. They were fellow students who sided with him when he said "Luke tried to kill me. I'm going to burn the school down and kill everyone here. Are you with me... or not?"

The ONLY things that makes them cool are the name and the mystery.

Disney really should have thought all of this out before making any of the movies.

Probably.
But then they decided to leave the writing to the people making the films, rather than having the trilogy planned and outlined by management and studio heads.

 

[MarkB]

He literally spaced his own mom!

No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.

And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.

 

[cbwjm]

What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.

 

[MarkB]

I'd like to see Kylo training his Knights of Ren, the other apprentices who fled Luke's temple with him... and Luke haunting him as a Force Ghost, pointing out the contradictions and shortcomings in the Dark Side teachings Kylo is trying to pass on from what Snoke taught him, while also acknowledging the failings of the Jedi strictures that Luke had been attempting to pass on to his students. Eventually Kylo and Luke both redeem themselves through the lessons they pass on to the other students, finding a path that avoids both the Dark Side's veneration of anger and pain, and the Jedi Order's aversion to any emotional connection.

We're not going to get anything like that, but it'd be nice.

 

[Jester David]

What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.

And you think kids were crying hard while leaving the theater after Infinity War...

 

[Jester David]

No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.

And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.

Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.

 

[MarkB]

Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.

Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.

Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.

 

[Dioltach]

Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.

It just struck me that perhaps the reason why Jedi weren't allowed to have children was precisely to prevent the kind of drama that comes with these bloodlines ...