Rate Troy

[Mistwell]

One other issue, I've noticed at least one complaint here (and a number in the reviews) that the actress is "not believable as 'the face that launched a thousand ships.'" I ask you, who could possible be believable in that role? I challenge you to find a single woman who even 100 people will agree is the "most beautiful woman in the world." Besides, the way the movie played out her beauty and Menelaus were secondary to Agamemnon's greed. So she didn't need to be "the face that launched a thousand ships."

As I said in my post earlier, there was a woman already in the movie that should have played Helen instead, Polydora, played by Siri Svegler. Siri is a better actress, better looking, and all around better for the role.

My opinion that the person playing Helen was not appropriate for the role is not alone. It's mentioned in many professional criticisms of the movie as well. The person who played Helen, Diane Kruger, is primarily a german model, not an actress (and she only acted for the first time last year). Wolfgang Petersen fell in love with the look of some model, and cast her in this role. That was it. Diane Kruger shouldn't be in this movie...and only a Director thinking she is beautiful got her this role.

 

[Agemegos]

One other issue, I've noticed at least one complaint here (and a number in the reviews) that the actress is "not believable as 'the face that launched a thousand ships.'" I ask you, who could possible be believable in that role? I challenge you to find a single woman who even 100 people will agree is the "most beautiful woman in the world." Besides, the way the movie played out her beauty and Menelaus were secondary to Agamemnon's greed. So she didn't need to be "the face that launched a thousand ships."

Just so. And besides, the "face that launched a thousand ships" line is from a 16th-century English play (Marlowe's Tragickal History of Doctor Faustus). Given that every writer since Homer (and probably before: I have just read a learned opinion that the character of Hector was created by Homer in defiance of existing tradition) has given his own version of the material, and that none of them is consistent with any of the others, the makers of this version were free to ignore Marlowe's version.

Helen only needs to be the most beautiful woman in the world in versions of the story that start with the Judgement of Paris (Homer does not, and although some parts of Book XXIII are consistent with it, parts of Book III are inconsistent with it). The movie doesn't have any gods in it at all, and therefore no Judgement of Paris, and therefore no need for Helen to be the most beautiful woman in the world. I thought that the 'actress' playing Helen was certainly attractive enough that a youngster like the film's version of Paris might well become besotted with her. And that is all the film's plot required.

 

[johnsemlak]

I think the evidence on Orlando Bloom is pretty conclusive -- boy needs to learn how to act. Seriously. He's got that "wrinkly forehead determined stare" thing down -- if he had three or four more expressions he'd have a veritable palette to work with.

Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm going this weekend despite some negative reviews.

I think this was a predictable outcome with Orlando Bloom. He became incredibly popular as Legalos, espeically with the teenage girl demographic. He didn't have to act much in the LotR movies, so I'm sure the public is unaware of any weaknesses there. So when filmmakers had a chance to cast him as Paris in Troy, they probably couldn't resist. He was a sure draw.

 

[Agemegos]

The Achilles-Odysseus friendship (runs completely counter to the book)

Does it? I am just re-reading the Iliad (haven't touched it in about twenty years, except to pack and unpack it each time I have moved house), and came to a part in Book IX in which Achilles twice says that there are no two Achaeans that he loves more than Odysseus and Aias Telamonides (Big Ajax). And that is within hearing of Patroclus, too.

Besides which, even if that is true, is it relevant? There is not one 'the book'. The monomythic version of the legend of the Trojan War that we have is stitched together out of pieces of different classical versions that were not consistent with one another. One classical source says that Helen was placed among the stars by her father Zeus. Another that she was united with Achilles (that's right: Achilles) in the Elysian Fields after her death. And another that she was the daughter not of Zeus but of Tyndareus, and that after the death of her husband Menelaus she was driven out of Sparta by the widows of the men who died in the War, fled to Rhodes, and was murdered on the orders of Queen Polyxo. So if the movie is going to be based on the novel idea that

Spoiler

Helen loved Paris (rather than Menelaus) and ran away from Sparta voluntarily (rather than being kidnapped 'with her goods'), it might as well go on to conclude that she lives with him ever after, as happily as may be under the circumstances.

 

[shilsen]

Does it? I am just re-reading the Iliad (haven't touched it in about twenty years, except to pack and unpack it each time I have moved house), and came to a part in Book IX in which Achilles twice says that there are no two Achaeans that he loves more than Odysseus and Aias Telamonides (Big Ajax). And that is within hearing of Patroclus, too.

I haven't looked at the Iliad in over a dozen years either, so perhaps I was remembering subtext rather than text, but IIRC, during the overtures to Achilles he quite explicitly rejects Odysseus' wordy and diplomatic approach in favor of the more simplistic but honest Ajax.

Besides which, even if that is true, is it relevant? There is not one 'the book'. The monomythic version of the legend of the Trojan War that we have is stitched together out of pieces of different classical versions that were not consistent with one another.

I was referring very specifically to the Iliad and not other aspects of the Trojan War myth. And I don't think I even implied it was a problem. Just an observation about a directorial choice which actually worked quite well for the film. In my posts above I've been saying the same thing as you about the different classical versions.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

...So there are a lot more versions of the source material both in letter and spirit, than is commonly known.

Absolutely. But I'm assuming Homer as a primary source. As you said, the Illiad doesn't go into the end of the war, but iirc (and it's been a long time, so I'm probably at least partially wrong) the summary of the end of the war given in the Odyssey includes

Spoiler

mention of Paris' death

. Of course, now I'm doubting whether said summary was the work of Homer (insofar as anything can be said to be the work of a potentially imaginary author) or of the publisher.

Now I have two books to re-read.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Paris just has an incredibly low wisdom score.

Fair enough. That's certainly one possibility

Personally, I think you're falling victim to the cute puppy effect. There are two possibilities: 1) He's a self-serving little jerk; 2) He's just dumb. Were he ugly or greasy or had they shown him in his "girl in every port" stage before Helen, everyone would assume he was a self-serving little jerk. But he's attractive, and we only see him when he's theoretically in love, so people go, "Awwwww... He's so cute" and treat him like a puppy. Only when this puppy piddles on the floor, 50,000 or so Greeks show up. And nobody so much as bothers to roll up a newspaper or stick his nose in it!

 

[Dark Jezter]

Fair enough. That's certainly one possibility

Personally, I think you're falling victim to the cute puppy effect. There are two possibilities: 1) He's a self-serving little jerk; 2) He's just dumb. Were he ugly or greasy or had they shown him in his "girl in every port" stage before Helen, everyone would assume he was a self-serving little jerk. But he's attractive, and we only see him when he's theoretically in love, so people go, "Awwwww... He's so cute" and treat him like a puppy. Only when this puppy piddles on the floor, 50,000 or so Greeks show up. And nobody so much as bothers to roll up a newspaper or stick his nose in it!

Best. analogy. ever.

 

[barsoomcore]

I'm assuming Homer as a primary source.

Which is fair enough, seeing as how he's listed on IMDB as a writer of the film: "Homer (Poem)"

Which makes me giggle. Wonder if they'd make an Oscar statuette for the old geezer?

 

[Agemegos]

I haven't looked at the Iliad in over a dozen years either, so perhaps I was remembering subtext rather than text, but IIRC, during the overtures to Achilles he quite explicitly rejects Odysseus' wordy and diplomatic approach in favor of the more simplistic but honest Ajax.

I have just re-read it.

Spoiler

He rejects both.

He rejects Agamemnon's public apology and acknowledgement that only Achilles to defeat Hector. He rejects seven tripods untarnished by the flame, ten talents of gold, twenty gleaming copper cauldrons, twelve champion racehorses, seven Lesbian women of great beauty and skill at handicrafts, his pick of the gold and bronze of Troy to the extent that his forty ships will carry, twenty Trojan women of his choice (conditional on eventual victory, and Helen excluded), his choice of Agamemnon's [surviving, let's not forget Iphigenia] daughters in marriage (with the largest dowry ever paid, and no bride-price to pay), kingship of seven rich towns of Agamemnon's land, and guaranteed status the equal of Agamemnon's son Orestes. He rejects Briseis, even though Agamemnon has not slept with her. And he goes to bed with Diomede the daughter of Phorbas, whom he kidnapped from Lesbos.

This guy needed some work if he was going to be admired or even tolerated by modern audience. And that's without even thinking about the way he

Spoiler

treated Hector's body

. Homer's Achilles is a monster: faithless, lawless, murderous, sacrilegious, and self-destructive. It is a real eye-opener that Alexander the Great admired him so much.

On another point, I have read on since I last posted, and come to the bit where that discursive old windbag Nestor descibes how he and Odysseus

Spoiler

recruited Achilles (and Patroclus) into Agamemnon's army

. (There is no mention of the compact of Helen's suitors here.) The film-makers indeed took liberties with the material (which was perfectly within the terms of their dramatic licence, and no more than previous authors did). But having Odysseus

Spoiler

recruit Achilles

is not one.

By the way, I would like to apologise for my rather tangential response to your post: I was aware of your previous indications that you understood the diversity of the sources for the Trojan War. I ought to have made it clearer that I was addressing the readership at large, and simply taking one of your turns of phrase as a jumping off point to address a misconception that I know you do not share.