Rating the 4e conditions

[Jack99]

Helpless, unconscious, stun, dazed, blindness, weakened, restrained, immobilized, grant CA (all ennemies), slowed, grant CA (1 person), knocked prone, slided, pushed, pulled, deafened.

These are the afflictions that player and monsters can inflict on each other.

I have listed them as I see it, from the ability that players the least would want to have inflicted on them, to the ability that players would mind the least to have inflicted upon them (ie. according to my list, it sucks the most to be rendered helpless and it sucks the least to be deafened).

Now, obviously, this will depend on circumstances (ie. Immobilization sucks bigtime if you are standing in the middle of a cave-in), but this list is meant to represent a majority of situation.

For this argument, unconscious is a condition that is canceled by damage, helpless is not.

Anyway, let me hear what you think of my list, and why I am wrong.

 

[LostSoul]

Helpless, unconscious, stun, dazed, blindness, weakened, restrained, immobilized, grant CA (all ennemies), slowed, grant CA (1 person), knocked prone, slided, pushed, pulled, deafened.

Prone grants CA to all enemies.

Granting CA to one enemy is probably not as bad as having your movement forced. In a lot of circumstances it's not a big deal, but it can mess you up when you need to make the right move.

Daze/Blind/Weakened... these are all pretty close. I think Blind is the worst; it removes your ability to take OAs and that can mess you up.

Grabbed should be in there somewhere.

My list, then:

Deafened, CA (1 enemy), Grabbed, Pulled, Pushed, Slid, Slowed, CA (all enemies), Prone, Immobilized, Restrained, Dazed, Weakened, Blind, Stunned, Unconcious, Helpless, Dead.

It can be very different for different PCs and different monsters. A monster without a ranged attack does not want to be Immobilized. A Warlock might not care. CA is worse for monsters than PCs, for the most part.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Deafened, CA (1 enemy), Grabbed, Pulled, Pushed, Slid, Slowed, CA (all enemies), Prone, Immobilized, Restrained, Dazed, Weakened, Blind, Stunned, Unconcious, Helpless, Dead.

Good list. I agree that it's hard to judge Dazed/Weakened/Blinded. They are probably equals.

Pull/Push/Slide is not a condition, I think. It is something else, in a way a "multiplier". For example: Push/Slide + Immobilize (á la Turn Undead) makes the immobilizing worse, since a (melee) enemy might lose its ability to attack (and act) for one round (basically turning it into a variant form of Daze). Slide is better then Push oder Pull, but Push/Pull are equally beneficial, but in different situations.

 

[FireLance]

Prone grants CA to all enemies.

Actually, prone grants CA to melee attacks only, and grants a bonus to all defenses against ranged attacks from nonadjacent enemies. It does grant a -2 penalty to attacks, but it is easily negated with a move action. It is also situationally useful against flying enemies because they fall if they can't reach the ground within a distance equal to their fly speed.

Overall, I wouldn't rate it better than CA (all enemies).

 

[WhatGravitas]

Good list. I agree that it's hard to judge Dazed/Weakened/Blinded. They are probably equals.

Personally, I think Dazed is way better than weakened - because it takes away your OAs *and* allows only one action *and* combat advantage.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Nymrohd]

Better or worse for whom? A fighter and a wizard losing OAs are not equivalent. A leader getting weakened is not the same with a rogue on the same condition. Granting CA in a fight with lurkers is often very dangerous. The effect of these conditions is variable, the variables many.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Helpless, unconscious, stun, dazed, blindness, weakened, restrained, immobilized, grant CA (all ennemies), slowed, grant CA (1 person), knocked prone, slided, pushed, pulled, deafened.

These are the afflictions that player and monsters can inflict on each other.

I have listed them as I see it, from the ability that players the least would want to have inflicted on them, to the ability that players would mind the least to have inflicted upon them (ie. according to my list, it sucks the most to be rendered helpless and it sucks the least to be deafened).

Now, obviously, this will depend on circumstances (ie. Immobilization sucks bigtime if you are standing in the middle of a cave-in), but this list is meant to represent a majority of situation.

For this argument, unconscious is a condition that is canceled by damage, helpless is not.

Anyway, let me hear what you think of my list, and why I am wrong.

Helpless--I have no problem with this as #1
Unconscious--Again, no problem with this as #2
Dominated--You missed this one. I'd rate losing your own turn and giving the enemies a turn is higher than stunned alone.
Stunned--Stunned goes here. Its nasty.
Petrified--Petrified seems to give you hefty damage reduction, so it rates lower than Stunned.
Blind--Blind ruins your turn far more than Dazed and Weakened do in my opinion.
Dazed--I'd rate this higher than Weakened because it reduces your options.
Weakened--I'd rate this lower since it only reduces damage, and doesn't limit your options.
Marked(Defender)--Being marked by a Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage or Warden(or monster with the equivalent) ranks at least here.
Immobilized--Immobilized is situational. If you are already where you want to be, it means nothing. If you are a melee hitter immobilized when you aren't within melee range of anything, this can suck worse than Blind/Dazed/Weakened. Ranged characters only lose the ability to escape.
Knocked Prone--Slowed is too situational in my opinion to rank higher than Prone. Prone really doesn't do a lot, but aside from teleporters is always at least a minor hassle. At the very least, you have to waste your move action standing up.
Slowed--Slowed is even more situational than Immobilized. Most of the time, its a non-issue, sometimes its a minor hassle, but on rare occasions it can ruin your day.
Slide--Depends on the current situation and the amount of the slide. The more disadvantages place you can slide something to, and the further you can slide, the better it is.
Push/Pull--As Slide, but with far less control.
Marked(basic)--The basic mark I place here
Combat Advantage--To one or many people, I'm not terribly impressed with this condition in terms of this list. It doesn't really limit what you can do, which all of the above do at least some of the time.
Deafened--What does this do, anyway?

 

[Jack99]

Dominated--You missed this one. I'd rate losing your own turn and giving the enemies a turn is higher than stunned alone.

Petrified--Petrified seems to give you hefty damage reduction, so it rates lower than Stunned.

Petrify is also permanent. Arguably that should make it worse. I didn't include it for a various of reasons, most importantly because it's so rare.

Combat Advantage--To one or many people, I'm not terribly impressed with this condition in terms of this list. It doesn't really limit what you can do, which all of the above do at least some of the time.

Interesting.

Deafened--What does this do, anyway?

DEAFENED DEAFENED
✦ You can’t hear anything.
✦ You take a –10 penalty to Perception checks.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Coincidentally, I've done a similar ranking for the upcoming Poisoncraft: Codex Venenorum, Ed. IV. It's not exactly the same, since I'm only grouping by tier, but I included a few other effects that you don't have:

Sub-Heroic: Damage: ongoing 1 poison damage, 1d3 poison damage. Effects: n/a.
Heroic: Damage: ongoing 5 poison damage, 2d6 poison damage. Effects: deafened, immobilized, muted, prone, slowed, weakened; -2 to all defenses, vulnerability 5 to one damage type.
Paragon: Damage: ongoing 10 poison damage, 4d6 poison damage. Effects: blinded, dazed, exhausted, nauseated, restrained, stunned, surprised; vulnerability 10 to one damage type.
Epic: Damage: ongoing 15 poison damage, 6d6 poison damage. Effects: helpless, petrified, unconscious; vulnerability 15 to one damage type.
Super-Epic: Damage: ongoing 20 poison damage, 8d6 poison damage. Effects: dying; vulnerability 20 to one damage type.

A few comments:
-Still a work in progress; this won't be finalized until I finish putting the poison creation system through its paces. I still have a lot of non-standard effects to enter, e.g., penalties, hallucinations, etc.
-Obviously, I excluded a few qualities that aren't suitable for poisons, e.g., marked, dominated, etc.
-Petrified is permanent? Says who?
-Muted, exhausted, nauseated? Consider that a sneak peek.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Petrify is also permanent. Arguably that should make it worse. I didn't include it for a various of reasons, most importantly because it's so rare.

Strangely enough, after reading through a lot of the Monster Manual and other sources, I find just as many temporary sources of Petrified as there are permanent ones(I can quote the Gray Dragon from Draconomicon off the top of my head), and the permanent ones tend to end when the creature who did the stoning dies.

I was just comparing things based on a single round. Petrified makes you more difficult to harm while disabling you, so it ranks lower on that criteria.