Rating the 4e conditions

[Caliber]

DMG 47: A flying creature that is knocked prone crashes.
DMG 48: Crashing:
1: A flying creature that crashes immediately drops a distance equal to its fly speed. If it reaches the ground, it lands safely.
2: If it has not yet reached the ground, it crashes
3: A creature that crashes falls all the way to the ground and takes falling damage.

[Personal note: this is a really bad choice of words here. Some pedantic rules lawyer is going to argue that step 2 allows the creature to resume from step 1 of "crashing."]

Well I'll be. Thanks for the quick response!

 

[Ravellion]

Anyway, I am still not convinced that knocked prone should rank higher than grant CA to all ennemies. Did you guys consider that if you grant CA it will usually be until the end of someone elses next turn, or a (save ends) effect, while knocked prone is almost always until your own turn?

It does cost a move action to stand up again, so generally that limits your options for that turn (or you don't stand up, and grant CA for an entire turn again). I'd say that's definitely worse than just granting CA.

 

[blargney the second]

Some conditions should have two separate entries - one vs melee opponents and one vs ranged opponents. Restrained is unbelievably nasty for meleers, but merely annoying for ranged attackers. (Having been on the receiving end.)
-blarg

 

[C_M2008]

Helpless, unconscious, stun, dazed, blindness, weakened, restrained, immobilized, grant CA (all ennemies), slowed, grant CA (1 person), knocked prone, slided, pushed, pulled, deafened.

These are the afflictions that player and monsters can inflict on each other.

I have listed them as I see it, from the ability that players the least would want to have inflicted on them, to the ability that players would mind the least to have inflicted upon them (ie. according to my list, it sucks the most to be rendered helpless and it sucks the least to be deafened).

Now, obviously, this will depend on circumstances (ie. Immobilization sucks bigtime if you are standing in the middle of a cave-in), but this list is meant to represent a majority of situation.

For this argument, unconscious is a condition that is canceled by damage, helpless is not.

Anyway, let me hear what you think of my list, and why I am wrong.

Helpless, unconscious, stunned, dazed, weakened, immobilized, restrained, blindness, slowed, Ca(all), CA(one), knocked prone, slided/pushed/pulled, deafened.

My order of resentment most of the time. Movement is important and I enjoy being able to use my abilities to good effect, blindness doesn't bug me as much as I can still hit a decent chunk of the time (for full damage and lots of powers have effects on a miss) and if not I will have only wasted an at-will. CA isn't a big deal to me as I am usually one with a lot of hit points or mobile enough to not be in harm's way.

 

[Jack99]

It does cost a move action to stand up again, so generally that limits your options for that turn (or you don't stand up, and grant CA for an entire turn again). I'd say that's definitely worse than just granting CA.

Good point.

Some conditions should have two separate entries - one vs melee opponents and one vs ranged opponents. Restrained is unbelievably nasty for meleers, but merely annoying for ranged attackers. (Having been on the receiving end.)
-blarg

Don't you mean the other way around?

 

[deleteme123456]

If you're a melee character: immobilized nastier than restrained (usually you're restrained by something in your melee reach).
If you're a ranged character: restrained nastier than immobilized (usually you can find a target in your range just fine without moving, but if you're restrained, you'll probably take an OA from your restrainer).

My two cents anyway, may not be what the above meant.

 

[Mengu]

Between dazed and weakened, more often than not I'd prefer to be weakened than dazed but there are exceptions. For most leaders, dazed can be worse than Blinded. For some strikers (Barbarians and Rogues), weakened can be worse than dazed. For the majority of the time, I agree with the current placings for these three conditions.

In most cases, I'd rather be pushed than pulled. Pulled usually means I'm about to be mauled. Pushed puts me in a relatively safe place (unless there is a ledge) and rarely limits my options. I'd usually rather be slowed than pulled, slid or pushed some place I don't want to be. So I moved slowed down. I have yet to see slow matter for one of the PC's, and for enemies, it rarely makes a difference. I'd put this below forced movement.

Combat advantage is awesome for both PC's and Monsters. I don't see how this can be below slow, so I'd push slow down a bit further.

Here is what my list would look like (pretty close to the last list by Jack99)

Unconscious
Dominated
Stunned
Blinded
Dazed
Weakened
Restrained
Immobilized
Knocked prone
Grabbed
Granting CA (all enemies)
Slid
Pulled
Pushed
Granting CA (one enemy)
Slowed
Deafened.

On another note, should ongoing damage be among these conditions?

 

[blargney the second]

Restrained is immobilized plus you grant combat advantage plus you take -2 to attack. It is much more powerful than immobilized.

Jack99, our entire party got whammied with restrained. The ranged guys were fine being restrained because positioning didn't particulary matter to them, while the meleers were hosed - all targets were out of reach, and nobody could set up flanks. Conversely, when we all got nailed with blindness the melee guys were relatively okay but the ranged guys couldn't do anything at all.
-blarg

 

[Jack99]

Restrained is immobilized plus you grant combat advantage plus you take -2 to attack. It is much more powerful than immobilized.

On that we agree.


J

ack99, our entire party got whammied with restrained. The ranged guys were fine being restrained because positioning didn't particulary matter to them, while the meleers were hosed - all targets were out of reach, and nobody could set up flanks. Conversely, when we all got nailed with blindness the melee guys were relatively okay but the ranged guys couldn't do anything at all.
-blarg

Hmm I can see what you mean. I was asking because I have seen a few times that the casters (especially the cleric) get shut down by a restrain, since many of his spells are ranged and due to the restrain, he couldn't shift out of reach from the monster. Maybe we can conclude that restrain is just nasty under the right circumstances

 

[FireLance]

DMG 47: A flying creature that is knocked prone crashes.
DMG 48: Crashing:
1: A flying creature that crashes immediately drops a distance equal to its fly speed. If it reaches the ground, it lands safely.
2: If it has not yet reached the ground, it crashes
3: A creature that crashes falls all the way to the ground and takes falling damage.

[Personal note: this is a really bad choice of words here. Some pedantic rules lawyer is going to argue that step 2 allows the creature to resume from step 1 of "crashing."]

Plus, it's in the description of the Prone condition in the PH.