Ray of Enfeeblement vs. Halfling Bbn

[kjenks]

A halfling barbarian, base Str 10, goes into a rage, Str now 14, then gets hit by RoE for 11. And now, after that, his rage wears off (he loses the +4 and gets a further -2 penalty to Str from fatigue). What's his Str now?

A) 10 - 11 - 2 = -3, so Str = -3
B) 10 - 11 (but minumum 1) = 1, 1 - 2 = -1, so Str = -1
C) 10 - 11 - 2 = -3, but minimum 1, so Str = 1

Or maybe that RoE could only give the halfling a penalty of 9, not 11, because the halfling's base Str is 10.

D) 10 - 9 - 2 = -1, so Str = -1
E) 10 - 9 - 2 = -1, but minimum 1, so Str = 1

So is our halfling barbarian lying helpless on the ground?

 

[Legildur]

The correct answer is none of the above as their is no such thing as a halfling barbarian - it's only a hypothetical - can't happen!

Seriously though, Strength is 1, and you have a 3 foot tall humanoid lying on the ground exhausted, pleading 'Help me'!

 

[Starglim]

C) The halfling has a penalty of 11 to his current 8 Strength, but his Strength can't be reduced to less than 1. If the halfling then received bull's strength he would have a penalty of 11 to his Strength of 12 and his Strength would still be 1.

 

[Kieperr]

The spell reduces the halfling's Str from 14 to 3. Once the rage ends the spell's effect reduces the Str from 10 to 1. The fatigue would reduce this by 2 to a 0 (no negative ability scores). The halfling is lying on the ground unable to move. The spell's effect and the fatigue are different effects that create penalties to Str and those penalties stack.

 

[Deset Gled]

There is a clause in the Ray of Enfeeblement spell that states that the target's strength cannot go below 1. It's argueable what the intent of this clause is, but by a strict reading, the RoE spell will actually protect it's target from ever having it's strength go below 1.

Your answer C is correct.

 

[ceratitis]

it does not protect a target from a different effect!!! this isnt a defence spell!
his str is 0 if fatigue can do that other wise its 1 but honestly whats the difference? this is one beat halfling.
Z

 

[Nareau]

The rules seem to be a little unclear here, because they don't explicitly explain what order to impose the penalties. That's important, because one of these penalties (RoE) can't bring you down past 1. Another penalty (fatigue) can. I think it would be logical to apply the penalties in the order in which they occur.

RoE imposes an unnamed penalty to Strength that can't reduce his Str below 1.
Fatigue also imposes an unnamed penalty to Str.

So it would go:
10 -> 14 (+4 due to rage)
14 -> 3 (-11 due to RoE)
3 -> 1 (-4 due to end of rage)
1 -> 0 (-2 due to fatigue)

Now, if the halfling had been hit by the RoE BEFORE he raged, it would look like:
10 -> 1 (-11 due to RoE, minimum 1)
1 -> 3 (+4 due to rage; all penalties and bonuses stack normally: 10 - 11 + 4 = 3)
3 -> 1 (-4 as bonus from rage lost)
1 -> 0 (-2 from fatigue)

And if he were hit after he was done raging:
10 -> 14 (+4 from rage)
14 -> 10 (bonus from rage lost)
10 -> 8 (fatigue)
8 -> 1 (RoE)

At least, that's how I would run it as a DM.

Spider

 

[Wolfwood2]

The rules seem to be a little unclear here, because they don't explicitly explain what order to impose the penalties. That's important, because one of these penalties (RoE) can't bring you down past 1. Another penalty (fatigue) can. I think it would be logical to apply the penalties in the order in which they occur.

I think it's much more in line with the philosophy of D&D rules to impose the penalties in the order least harmful to the character being penalized. The same way that halved effects always round down.

It makes no sense to me that if you're fatigued and then hit by RoE your strength is 1, but if you're hit by RoE and then fatigued your strength is 0.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It makes no sense to me that if you're fatigued and then hit by RoE your strength is 1, but if you're hit by RoE and then fatigued your strength is 0.

It also doesn't make sense that if you're already at Str 0 (say poison damage down to 2 then fatigue), then the party wizard can bring you up to Str 1 with a ray of enfeeblement.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

It also doesn't make sense that if you're already at Str 0 (say poison damage down to 2 then fatigue), then the party wizard can bring you up to Str 1 with a ray of enfeeblement.

Ridiculous. The spell imposes a PENALTY and says the subject's Str cannot DROP below 1. You can argue that the subject's Str cannot be lowered further by any additional effects/conditions, but you cannot say a penalty increases the Str score (compare with flat-footed vs. low Dex penalty). If the halfling is already at Str 0 then no Str penalty can increase it and the spell will have no effect (and the spell will still not have dropped the subject's Str below 0, that's where you found it).
I'd argue that the Ray affects current Str, however modified, subject to its stated limits. When other conditions affect the RoE modified Str then whatever happens, happens - it's a dangerous world for those skating close to the edge. Conversely, and strictly according to the spell's descriptive text, no condition will lower the subject's Str below 1 while the spell's duration remains in effect (RAW silliness, but that's what it says literally). Might buy you some time to remove a Str penalty imposing condition though.