Re-balancing the 1/2 Orc for my own campaign

[Thurbane]

Can someone please explain why the INT penalty is such a big deal? Sure it militates against half-orc wizards, but if you're so concerned about skill points, why can't you just take levels in a class that grants lots of skill points? Both Rogue and Ranger classes mesh well with Barbarian.

It's more of a matter of balance against the other standard races, for me anyway. Why should Half-Orcs get one +2 and two -2 to abilities, when EVERY other stats adjusted race only take one -2.

It's not like their other abilities are strong enough to justify this:

> Darkvision - yep, dwarves get that
> Medium size - nothing special there
> Move 30 ft - again, very standard
> Orc-blood - more of a hindrance than a help anyway. How many times is this a positive rather than an negative? There a lot more Orc-bane weapons out there than there are magic items which require Orcish blood to use, or magical Orc Double-Axes. Not to mention all the rangers with Orcs as their favored enemies, Dwarves getting a bonus to hit you etc.
> Automatic Languages - again, nothing special, apart from the fact you'll have one less than everyone else due to your INT penalty
> Favored class - once more, pretty standard

No racial bonuses to skills, no special detection abilities, no bonus feat, no extra skill point per level, no innate spell-like abilities, no spell immunities, no save bonuses, no bonus to hit with specific weapons...how can anyone possibly think 1/2 Orcs are on an even keel with the other PHB races? The only one they come close to is 1/2 Elves, and that's only because they get hosed as well...

 

[irdeggman]

how can anyone possibly think 1/2 Orcs are on an even keel with the other PHB races? The only one they come close to is 1/2 Elves, and that's only because they get hosed as well...

Gnomes:
+2 Con, -2 Str
Low light vision (clearly not as good as dark vision)
Bunch of bonuses that are applicable to specific cases
Speed: 20 ft
Spell-like abilities (but need a Charisma of 10 in order to get them, except for speak with (burrowing) animals - and only usable 1/day
Favored class: bard
Small creatures (so weapons do less damage)

Looks like 1/2 orcs stack up pretty well there.

+2 to Str has more benefits than just about any other stat.

Argueably Con is more valuable, but there are less things it applies to, other than hit points and fort saves. There is only 1 Con based skill (Concentration) and 3 Str based ones (Climb, Jump, Swim).

Str also comes into play in a lot of combat special attacks (grapple, bull rush, disarm {melee attack opposed rolls so Str has a direct effect}, overrun, sunder {again a melee attack opposed roll}, trip).

So having an advantage to strength can really, really be a big deal - it just looks like they are not balanced if all abilites are assumed to be equal (which they are not).

Now having said that, there is a decided lack of color add ons for the half-orc. Things like racial weapon martial proficiency and the like.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Small creatures (so weapons do less damage)

Oh, and +1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, and +4 to Hide checks. But never mind that, eh?

And you missed a few other things. . .

* Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
* Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.
* +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.

Not to mention, the spell-like abilities are all actually quite useful, with the benefit of a bit of thought. And 10 Charisma is hardly demanding as a prereq, whether you're rolling or doing point buy.

+2 to Str has more benefits than just about any other stat.

No. No, it doesn't.

I've yet to see even *one* convincing argument as to why it is.

 

[Nifft]

The best stat in the game is DEXTERITY. It benefits:
- Initiative
- AC
- Missile Attacks
- Touch Attacks
- A Save
- A bunch of good skills
It can benefit (with a feat):
- Melee Attacks

The second best stat is CONSTITUTION. It benefits:
- HP
- A Save
- One very important skill

The third best stat is INTELLIGENCE or WISDOM.

Int benefits:
- Total number of skill points
- Modifies many skills that are sometimes useful

Wis benefits:
- A Save
- Some skills that are important to ALL PCs


Strength and Charisma are tied for last. Many PCs will never use either.

-- N

 

[Thurbane]

I can only assume that WotC wanted to make crossbreed races more "rare" by discouraging players from taking them.

Seriously, take a look at this - it's almost mathemagical proof that Wizards hates the "mongrel" races...

 

[Khuxan]

Nifft, you're the voice of reason.

 

[Nadaka]

Its not so much that strength is better. Its that for those who want a strength bonus, charisma is going to be a dump stat anyway. So +2 str -2 cha doesn't balance out well. Now, given the complete dirth of other racial features, that might balance out. But it still don't really like the idea of Horcs being good wizards, and removing the int penalty makes them about as good at wizardry as elves (perhaps better due to con).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The problem with strength as a bonus is that it benefits melee fighters a lot more than any other ability bonus granted by the standard core races (Con and Dex helps every class). If there was a class with a bonus to INT, WIS or CHA, it would probably have caused the same balance concerns.

That's why the Half-Orc was "balanced" with a -2 Int and Cha. But the truth is, it is not really much of a balance for a pure melee fighter that only cares about "average damage per 10 seconds". But it hurts everybody that is trying to be something else with a half-orc, which makes it a weak race.

I don't really know if that can be changed - sure, the melee warrior could be balanced a bit betterwith a -2 to Dex (or Con, though that makes no sense ). But any other ability score penalty will hit non-melee fighters too, and they don't need the strength bonus for anything.

 

[irdeggman]

The problem with strength as a bonus is that it benefits melee fighters a lot more than any other ability bonus granted by the standard core races (Con and Dex helps every class). If there was a class with a bonus to INT, WIS or CHA, it would probably have caused the same balance concerns.

That's why the Half-Orc was "balanced" with a -2 Int and Cha. But the truth is, it is not really much of a balance for a pure melee fighter that only cares about "average damage per 10 seconds". But it hurts everybody that is trying to be something else with a half-orc, which makes it a weak race.

I don't really know if that can be changed - sure, the melee warrior could be balanced a bit betterwith a -2 to Dex (or Con, though that makes no sense ). But any other ability score penalty will hit non-melee fighters too, and they don't need the strength bonus for anything.

And since a half-orc's favored class is barbarian (a primarily melee oriented class) the race is heavily powered towards melee.

Personally I don't feel that a minus to Charisma offsets a plus to Con either, but that is the WotC "standard'. I prefer what Birthright did to dwarves (the 3.5 version can be found by following my sig).

Basically for ability mods:
+2 Con, -2 Dex

 

[irdeggman]

The best stat in the game is DEXTERITY. It benefits:
- Initiative
- AC
- Missile Attacks
- Touch Attacks
- A Save
- A bunch of good skills
It can benefit (with a feat):
- Melee Attacks

The second best stat is CONSTITUTION. It benefits:
- HP
- A Save
- One very important skill

The third best stat is INTELLIGENCE or WISDOM.

Int benefits:
- Total number of skill points
- Modifies many skills that are sometimes useful

Wis benefits:
- A Save
- Some skills that are important to ALL PCs


Strength and Charisma are tied for last. Many PCs will never use either.

-- N

I agree with Dex being the best and I pointed out that Con could argueably be higher than Strength.

But I disagree with Int and Wisdom being higher than Strength.

Strength affects all of the combat issues I previously mentioned. Dex can only be used with "some" melee weapons. Power attack cannot be used with any melee weapon than can benefit from Dex. Thrown weapons use Dex for the to hit bonus but Str for the damage mod and let's not forget how Str applies to compound bows.

Strength also affects carrying capacity (something that in my experience is often ignored but is still part of the rules) which has a bad affect on many, many things when a character's load is above light.

I have never, ever seen a party that did not have at least one melee orientedt PC. I have seen several that did not have a spellcaster of any type and a lot that didn't have both a divine and arcane caster. I have also seen many that did not have a rogue (or rogue-ish) skill based PC.

Strength benefits melee characters much more than does Int, Wisdom or Charisma.

It should be noted that all abilites have uses (thank you 3.x) and none are really dump stats anymore since a character will have some penalty for having a dump stat.