Re-balancing the 1/2 Orc for my own campaign

[irdeggman]

Oh, and +1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, and +4 to Hide checks. But never mind that, eh?

And you missed a few other things. . .

* Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
* Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.
* +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.

Not to mention, the spell-like abilities are all actually quite useful, with the benefit of a bit of thought. And 10 Charisma is hardly demanding as a prereq, whether you're rolling or doing point buy.

Actually I didn't really miss any of these.

The spell like abilities require a non-dump stat in charisma and are "situational" in their application.

A small creature gains a +1 to hit, a +1 to AC and +4 to Hide but has a lot of really, really big penalties due to size alone that off set those. As I pointed out there is the weapon damage issue (which is pretty significant) there is also the penalties associated with using a weapon of the wrong "size" - which will come pretty often in a medium size oriented world (which most settings are assumed to be). Never underestimate that reduced speed either the quote that always comes to mind is:

"I don't have to be faster than the bugbear, I only have to be faster than you."


Alchemy is a skill that can only truely benefits spellcasters since the items that can be made with require the character to be a spellcaster. Very situational and class-oriented.

Racial familiar weaponry - is a good thing, but you must have martial weapon profiency in order to benefit from it. Which means to be a warrior - oriented class or take the martial weapon proficiency (specific weapon) feat for that weapon. A good color benefit, but really not that useful for a non-martial oriented character since it still requires a feat to use the weapon without penalty. Although by not requiring it to be exotic weapon proficieny a character doesn't have to met the +1 BAB prerequisite fot the feat.

The bonus to listen checks is good and generally useful most of the time.

The racial to hit and dodge bonuses fall back to good color benefits (which I said the race could benefit from already). But these are also situational.

The other benefits are likewise situational and very class oriented. They require casting (or resisting) Illusion spells.

 

[NilesB]

Personally I don't feel that a minus to Charisma offsets a plus to Con either, but that is the WotC "standard'.

Of the PHB races with attribute modifiers only the elf's attribute penalty offsets their bonus.

This is because contrary to Nifft's assertion, there is no overall most important attribute, each character has Attributes they value to varying degrees and attrbutes that they have almost no use for.

The gnome has, as has been demonstrated earlier in the thread, a lot of downsides. But it's not a big deal to be worse at something you are never going to do anyway. So when playing a Wizard or a Sorceror for example most of the Gnomes downsides never become relevant.

The Half-Orc has fewer Downsides than the Gnome and when playing to the races strengths those come up even less often.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The thing about STR is, it's in the same category as INT: if you can only have one good stat (say, in the "roll six sets and then assign to whichever stats you want" method), it can still be the core of a powerful character. (Clerics still need a bit of CHA for turning and STR to carry plate armor around; Sorcerers need at least a moderate INT, if only to get their needed skills...)

Take Barbarians, for instance. With a d12 hit die and a good base Fort save, you don't really NEED a high CON (especially since rage boosts it). With anything heavier than the lightest armors and without using ranged weapons, what does a really high DEX give you? (initiative and Reflex saves, sure.) But pump that STR up, and you can still be a huge asset to the group. It doesn't matter how crappy his other stats are, you do NOT ignore a raging Barbarian with a magic belt who can get his STR up over 30. (18 base, 5 increases, 8 more for rage, 6 for the belt = 37 total before including racial bonuses.)

Better yet, take Rangers. With 6 skill points per level, a -2 INT doesn't really hurt much. They don't need CHA. WIS wasn't penalized. They've got good Fort AND Reflex saves. If they go for the dual-wielding weapon path, a high STR really helps offset the inherent -2 attack penalty. So, in my experience, Half-Orcs make fantastic melee-oriented Rangers, which is why we switched that to be their Favored Class and gave a few minor sense boosts.

This is made worse by the fact that so many people (including some I play with) always seem to ignore the encumbrance rules. They'll have a STR 8 Cleric carrying plate armor, a backpack full of all the standard adventuring gear, several weapons, assorted loot, etc., and it STILL won't occur to them that they're going to be encumbered. One of the things I liked about the Temple of Elemental Evil videogame was that it didn't compromise on this; most of the recruitable characters in the game had below-average STR, and it really, really hurt.

I'll agree that DEX has been undervalued. A race with a +DEX bonus should have to give up something significant (i.e., not CHA). It's primarily defensive (outside of archers), and a character who can't actually Do Unto Others isn't worth much no matter how hard he is to hit. But, it's a stat EVERY class could use at least a little of.

Anyway, I'd put DEX and CON into one category (Everyone Wants a Bit), and the other four stats into a second (Most People Don't Want It, But One Class Needs ONLY It). Just ask yourself: if someone suggested an ECL 0 race with a +2 INT bonus, would you be content balancing it with -2 to one other stat? I wouldn't, because that race would, by default, be the ideal for Wizards and Psions. Even a DEX or CON penalty wouldn't be enough, IMO.

So, while I'm okay trading a plus in DEX for a minus in CON (or vice versa), any boost to STR, INT, WIS, or CHA should really require decreasing two other stats. Of course, that's not quite the design philosophy WotC seems to use, but at least it explains why I don't have a problem with the Half-Orc's stats.
(Incidentally, Half-Orcs also make great Clerics; they don't suffer in WIS or CON, after all.)

 

[Quartz]

Strength and Charisma are tied for last.

I disagree: CHA is just about the strongest stat. Just look at it mechanically. Sorceror? Check. Paladin? Check. Bard? Check. Cleric? Check. Rogue? Check. Divine Mystic? Check. Divine Crusader? Check. Force of Personality feat? Check. And so on.

 

[Quartz]

There's a vibe I'm getting here that multiclassing is bad. Sorry, but multiclassing is good.

You want HP? Take a level in Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger.
You want skills? Take a level in Rogue or Ranger or Bard.
You want BAB? Take a level in Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger.
etc.

You want to play a race that's good in brute combat? Play a half-orc or dwarf.
You want to play a race that's good in arcane magic? Play an elf.
You want to play a race that's good at skills? Play a halfling.
You want to play a race that's an all-rounder? Play a human.

 

[Nifft]

I disagree: CHA is just about the strongest stat. Just look at it mechanically. Sorceror? Check. Paladin? Check. Bard? Check. Cleric? Check. Rogue? Check. Divine Mystic? Check. Divine Crusader? Check. Force of Personality feat? Check. And so on.

Well, it's true that I over-simplified just a little bit. It's certainly possible to build a good playable PC around any one stat. (Let's stick to Core rules, though, just because otherwise you can add any darn thing to any other darn thing.)

Perhaps a less simplified layout would make my view more clear. I'll lay out some character ideas and then I'll "bucket" stats into Primary, Important, Useful, and Dump. Primary is the stat or stats you need to be high. Important will be the stat or stats you need to stay alive, or that help you a lot, but which are less important than your Primary stat(s). Useful have some utility, while Dump stats are those that you can safely flush and stay useful and in character concept.

Bard (light armor, lots of skill points):
Heal / Buff Guy: Cha, Dex/Con, Int, Str/Wis
Skill / Lore Guy: Cha, Dex/Int, Con, Wis/Str
Buff + Archer: Cha/Dex, Con/Str, Int, Wis
Buff + Melee (flanker): Dex/Con, Int/Cha, Str, Wis -- why is Dex primary? Light armor! He's going to be tumbling around flanking. He'll want at least 13 Int so he can also take Combat Expertise.

Let's look at a Sorcerer. Your stats are, in order of importance:
Cha, Con/Dex, Int, Wis/Str

Why is Dex in there so high? Two reasons:
1/ Low level, you need it for AC and attack rolls (with your ray and ranged touch spells).
2/ High level, you need it for initiative! When a fight can be won in one round, it's important to be the guy who goes first!

A Wizard will look like a Sorcerer, but he has three dump stats instead of one useful and two dump. IMHO this is why Sorcerers are "underpowered" -- they need more skill points per level so they can make Int a dump stat. But that's a rant for another thread.

How about a Barbarian?
Str/Con, Dex, Wis, Int/Cha -- Wisdom is nice because Barbarians get Listen as a class skill, and because their Will save is not too miserable while raging. Why is Dex so important? Basically, for AC (Light or Medium armor), and for Initiative. Since Rage can only happen on your initiative, and since Rage can raise your Fort and Will saves significantly, it's important to go first.


Multi-class Skald Bard/Barbarian (optimal might be Barbarian 1 or 2 / Bard X):
Con, Cha/Dex, Str/Int, Wis
Light armor only, and most of his HD will be of the d6 persuasion, Dex and Con are most vital. Charisma is great for all the usual Bardic reasons. (First level should be Barbarian for the +6 HP. Yeah, eat the 8 skill point loss. I know it's going to hurt but you'll be alive later.)


And how about a Ranger?
Archery: Dex, Str/Con, Wis/Int, Cha
TWF: Dex, Str/Con, Wis/Int, Cha
Tracker: Wis moves up one category


Okay, what class concepts DO NOT have a desperate, clingly need for Dex?

- Paladin: You might use it if you're a mounted combat guy for your Ride checks, but your skill ranks and some custom skill booster items will overwhelm Dex at mid to high levels. Unlike a Bard or Barbarian, your defensive measures are always active -- you don't need to take an action to get your Fort & Will save bonus.

- Buff / Heal Cleric: You are traditionally in heavy armor and at the back of the initiative order. Your most vital spells are frequently counter-measures (including the Cure spells) so you often find yourself Delaying to the end of the round anyway.

- Druid over level 5: You need Wis, Con and Int. And "Natural Spell". That's really all you'll ever need.


Dex and Con are not always in the top category. Sorcerers want Dex less than they want Cha, obviously. However -- and this is my whole entire point -- EVERYONE wants some Dex. Consider how many builds have a Cha, Int, Str, or Wis penalty. Now consider how many have a Dex or Con penalty. Not just a regular 12 or 14 -- but an actual penalty. I'll bet you won't find many.

Anyway. Hope this has been helpful, or at least comprehensible.

Cheers, -- N


(all in my humble opinion of course)

 

[irdeggman]

You want to play a race that's good in brute combat? Play a half-orc or dwarf.
You want to play a race that's good in arcane magic? Play an elf.
You want to play a race that's good at skills? Play a halfling.
You want to play a race that's an all-rounder? Play a human.

And that is why I feel the half-orc is actually "balanced".

Again I did point out repeatedly that they have a decidedly lack of "flavor" abilities. Things like racial weapons or "favored enemy" type attack or defense bonuses or bonuses to a specific skill.

These are not things that would make them overpowering only more "flavorful". I don't think
they need an modifications to the ability mods though. Those kinds of things tend to bypass the "flavor" aspect and go straight to "power".

A Str bonus is more powerful than a minus to either Int or Cha (and roughly equal to a minus in both) for a melee combatant. Since the race is prone to melee combat it is only logical to make a build that goes that way.

Likewise a gnome is highly favored to be a bard (in 3.5) so it is only logical to make a build in that path.

Oh and IMO the race that best favors a skill build is human (due to the bonus skill points).

 

[NilesB]

Okay, what class concepts DO NOT have a desperate, clingly need for Dex?

I don't see a distant third on your priority list as a desperate, clingy need.

 

[solkan_uk]

Meh, halfbreeds shouldn't exist anyway - I say if someone wants to play something big, ugly and hard hitting, play a real orc, they're only ECL 0.

 

[Quartz]

However -- and this is my whole entire point -- EVERYONE wants some Dex.

I disagree. A lot of the need for Dex can be got around by various feats like Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, etc or by multiclassing (e.g. to Rogue for Evasion / Improved Evasion). And anyone in heavy armour (cleric, fighter, paladin) really doesn't need Dex.

I do agree that Dex is hardly ever a dump stat, apart from clerics. It seems to me that the usual dump stats are Str and Wis. Con is usually a prime stat and never a dump stat, and Int and Cha are usually ones where you want to put a bonus if not your prime stat.