re-revised Sorcerer

[Hardhead]

Personally, I think Psions are better than wizards now, from what I've seen (but with NO playtesting). Probably around cleric level.

 

[Li Shenron]

Only as far as the XPH goes

People say psions and wizards are equal.
People say sorcerers are underpowered compared to wizards.
I say sorcerers are underpowered compared to psions (pretty much everyone agrees here, I think).

The above brings the sorcerer on a level with the psion ... thus making him equal to the wizard as well.

Why is he better than the wizard now?

Or is the conclusion here, that what the people say is false?

Ask yourself this question: would you play a Wizard if your version replaced the PHB Sorcerer? If your answer is yes, that you would probably play Wiz and Sor 50% of the time (save for personal taste, or favourite tactics) then it's ok.

I just want to be honest, and with your Sorcerer I simply would never play a Wiz again, and I believe I am mostly an equal fan of both, only slightly more fond of the Wiz.

When I wrote

Whatever the initial assumptions, the conclusion is IMHO very bad.

I meant that if you start with the idea that Wiz=Psi and Wiz>Sor, and at the end Psi=Sor2 but you cannot deny that Sor2>Wiz, there must be something wrong at some point. My opinion is that either Wiz<Psi from the start or Sor2>Psi. Unfortunately I don't know exactly how the new Psion is, so I cannot say whether it is balanced with your Sorcerer, I presume it is...

It's not that easy to make a balance check between 2 classes, but IMHO it is just too evident that your Sorcerer outshines the core Wizard. It has everything equal or better except the number of spells known, but they are now increased enough to a point that you won't be easily frustrated by the limitation.

 

[Thanee]

@Hardhead: My impression as well (not saying that they are equal to clerics or anything, tho, that's too hard to judge without extensive playtesting). But arcane magic and divine magic are also much more different than arcane magic and psioncs (even though the way they use powers is very different to spellcasting, the endresults are not).

Ask yourself this question: would you play a Wizard if your version replaced the PHB Sorcerer? If your answer is yes, that you would probably play Wiz and Sor 50% of the time (save for personal taste, or favourite tactics) then it's ok.

Hard to say... let's assume the Spell Merging is metamagic and thus available to the wizard as well. He has all the important advantages as before, just that the sorcerer is on par with spell levels all the time, not just half and has quicker access to his flexibility, altho no higher flexibility in the end.

Currently I prefer the sorcerer over the wizard in general, only because of the spontaneous casting. I don't think this version (under above assumption) would prevent me from playing wizards. They are still very different.

I just want to be honest, and with your Sorcerer I simply would never play a Wiz again, and I believe I am mostly an equal fan of both, only slightly more fond of the Wiz.

The above sorcerer is not that much better than a wizard. Better, yes. I'm quite sure he is (much like the psion).

When I wrote I meant that if you start with the idea that Wiz=Psi and Wiz>Sor, and at the end Psi=Sor2 but you cannot deny that Sor2>Wiz, there must be something wrong at some point.

Correct. This is exactly, what I am saying.
This class here is partially a statement about the whole issue.

My opinion is that either Wiz<Psi from the start or Sor2>Psi. Unfortunately I don't know exactly how the new Psion is, so I cannot say whether it is balanced with your Sorcerer, I presume it is...

Look up my thread in the rules forum and use the link to the summary in the initial post.

It's not that easy to make a balance check between 2 classes, but IMHO it is just too evident that your Sorcerer outshines the core Wizard. It has everything equal or better except the number of spells known, but they are now increased enough to a point that you won't be easily frustrated by the limitation.

That's good or not?

That reasoning assumes an equal starting point, tho.

The main question (between wizard and sorcerer / wizard and psion) is, "how much is spontaneous casting worth compared to preparation and 'unlimited' spell knowledge." That's very campaign-dependant, also.

Anyways, try comparing without that pretty broken spell merging ability (that's more meant as a point of criticism with the psion to show how powerful the psions PP system is, really), not even as metamagic it would still by far favor the sorcerer.

I don't think the difference is so bad then, as this doesn't take away anything from the wizard's main ability. I think the sorcerer is more powerful than, but that advantage is mostly apparant at the low-mid levels (where the sorcerer is really tough to play and also boring), at higher levels the above is almost no difference.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

The main question (between wizard and sorcerer / wizard and psion) is, "how much is spontaneous casting worth compared to preparation and 'unlimited' spell knowledge." That's very campaign-dependant, also.

Anyways, try comparing without that pretty broken spell merging ability (that's more meant as a point of criticism with the psion to show how powerful the psions PP system is, really), not even as metamagic it would still by far favor the sorcerer.

Oh yes . Clearly, to allow spell merging to wizards as well helps the Wiz a little, but still the ability is far more useful to a Sor since she can use it on the fly. It's the same advantage that Sor have with any metamagic feat.

About the unlimited spell knowledge, tough subject. There is a point when quantity-based flexibility does not increase much more. The limits on spells/day together with spell preparation don't make the Wiz 10 times as powerful if he knows 10 times as many spells, not even by fully exploiting Scribe Scroll (because of its costs). On the other hand, a spontaneous caster benefits much more from a few more spells known, especially if she start with few like the core Sor.
What I mean is that straight power and flexibility cannot be easily compared or trade after some point. That is for example the reason why a heavily multiclassed character is normally a bad idea (unless you multiclass between classes whose features stack).

Now I'll go and read your thread, I did read the first pages days ago but I admit that it wasn't too much a captivating subject to me...

 

[Li Shenron]

BTW, I have to make a PC character for The City of the Spider Queen, and I was planning to play an arcane spellcaster. Since we're going to start at high level and I don't want to be overwhelmed by too many known spells, I was thinking about playing a Sorcerer (NOT your version! ). You have posted many threads about Sorcerers, do you still have the link to some of them with example builds?

 

[Li Shenron]

Thread checked -> It's hard to say because I don't know the Psion tables for spells known and per day, but I guess that you have taken them as a basis for your Sorcerer variant. If that's the case, I am just convinced that the Psion is too strong, much better than a Wizard: the only limitation left is in the number of spells known, but try to count how many spells are known by a Wizard, the difference is not so large. The Sorcerer already casts +50% spells per day and spontaneously, with your variant this increases as well...

 

[Thanee]

BTW, I have to make a PC character for The City of the Spider Queen, and I was planning to play an arcane spellcaster. Since we're going to start at high level and I don't want to be overwhelmed by too many known spells, I was thinking about playing a Sorcerer (NOT your version! ). You have posted many threads about Sorcerers, do you still have the link to some of them with example builds?

Actually, the thread you are referring to (dated shortly before Mith's PbP game - using the sort by date function and looking up the PbP thread should enable you to find it, btw - or even easier ... sort by user name) is pretty much the only thread about sorcerers (except some odd questions and the XPH stuff now), that I posted.

Sorry, I do not have any links to those... I do have the spell progression for my character (still playing that one), tho. Just make a thread in the rules forum if you are asking for spell ideas, you'll surely get a lot of input.

 

[Thanee]

Thread checked -> It's hard to say because I don't know the Psion tables for spells known and per day, but I guess that you have taken them as a basis for your Sorcerer variant.

I have based the spells known on that, but the psion still has a better progression!

In spells per day, the sorcerer is ahead of the psion in an average scenario involving multiple completely different challenges, but doesn't have the same flexibility in applying them (that's what spell merging partially counteracts), which makes them roughly even here.

On top of that, psions have a lot of other stuff (see the summary of my comparison in the rules forum (linked in initial post). Some of that isn't true (obviously) when using this version, but some still is (basically evening out the advantages the sorcerer has, like the better spell selection or the more "party friendly" spell list).

If that's the case, I am just convinced that the Psion is too strong, much better than a Wizard: the only limitation left is in the number of spells known, but try to count how many spells are known by a Wizard, the difference is not so large. The Sorcerer already casts +50% spells per day and spontaneously, with your variant this increases as well...

Compared to a specialist wizard it's not really +50%. More like +20%.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Actually, the thread you are referring to (dated shortly before Mith's PbP game - using the sort by date function and looking up the PbP thread should enable you to find it, btw - or even easier ... sort by user name) is pretty much the only thread about sorcerers (except some odd questions and the XPH stuff now), that I posted.

Sorry, I do not have any links to those... I do have the spell progression for my character (still playing that one), tho. Just make a thread in the rules forum if you are asking for spell ideas, you'll surely get a lot of input.

Ok... maybe I was confused with the Incantatrix build. BTW, what happened to your Silver Marches PbP game? -> sorry for so many OT

 

[Thanee]

Link: CLICK - wasn't hard to find, using the above method. Quite funny to see what kind of threads one has opened over time.

I have changed quite a few individual spells in this progression by now, tho, but it should still be helpful.

Silver Marches: I will eventually start a new game, which basically starts there. Continuing the game seems pretty pointless after the long while. Currently I just don't have enough time to dedicate to such an effort on a regular basis (at least every other day), to keep DMing such a game (which is quite some work, btw ). I have plans, however, for either that or a campaign set at the Moonsea using the module ruins of adventure (based on the old CRPG pool of radiance) as a starting point. But it will take about 2 months or so from now on, until I can do so.

Bye
Thanee