re-revised Sorcerer

[Thanee]

Personally, I've played in a campaign where Quicken Spell was usable by Sorcerers. It was certainly good, but not even to the "really powerful" level, much less the "broken" level. But then, it was a one-person example, so it may not mean anything.

Heard that from others, too.

I just want to mention that, because of the Psionic Focus, Psions can't Quicken powers except every other round (unless they spend a feat for Psionic Focus). So if you're reverse-engineering, you might want to keep that in mind.

Don't forget the Psionic Meditation feat. They could have written that directly into the table. Every psion will have it. It costs a feat, tho, which is - compared with the above sorcerer version - an actual cost.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

After reading a comment in my XPH discussion thread over at the rules forum, I had an idea about the sorcerer... let's see how you like this...

The basic idea is to assume, that the sorcerer is not on par with the other classes, and therefore needs to be improved. It also assumes that the balance between wizard and XPH psion is just fine. I'm using the XPH psion as a rough guideline, therefore. So, this is basically the upside down approach to my re-revised psion. Enjoy!

Altered Spells Known:

_1st 4/2
_2nd 5/3
_3rd 5/3/2
_4th 6/4/3
_5th 6/4/3/2
_6th 7/5/4/3
_7th 7/5/4/3/2
_8th 8/5/5/4/3
_9th 8/5/5/4/3/2
10th 9/5/5/5/4/3
11th 9/5/5/5/4/3/2
12th 9/5/5/5/4/4/3
13th 9/5/5/5/4/4/3/1
14th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/2
15th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/2/1
16th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/2
17th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1
18th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
19th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
20th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3

Note: Almost the same in the end, mostly updated to the standard spell level progression and a quicker access to multiple high level spells. 19th level looks a bit dry, tho.

Altered Spells Per Day:

_1st 5/3
_2nd 6/4
_3rd 6/5/3
_4th 6/6/4
_5th 6/6/5/3
_6th 6/6/6/4
_7th 6/6/6/5/3
_8th 6/6/6/6/4
_9th 6/6/6/6/5/3
10th 6/6/6/6/6/4
11th 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
12th 6/6/6/6/6/6/4
13th 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
14th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
15th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
16th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
17th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
18th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
19th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5
20th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

Thanee, from reading your previous post I know that you are a sorcerer lover, I agree I like them too, as adventurer they kick the wizard's ass.
But I think that allowing them quicker access to spell level makes them too powerfull, I would not allow that. I found sorcerer have a hard time until they reach 6 or 8 level depending on the campaign but after that...

Note: Updated to match the quicker spell level progression.

Skill Points: Sorcerers get (4+Int modifier) skill points per level.

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: arcana (Int), Knowledge: the planes (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Note: Not entirely sure about Gather Information, Knowledge: the planes, and Sense Motive here.

I only added the Cha based skill but not Gather information, I don't see why a sorcerer would be good at gathering information, they are not street people like rogue. I also see sorcerer as projecting a strong image of themselves but not being particularly intuitive about others. so no sense motive for me

Bonus Feats: Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level and a bonus metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level.

Fine with me actually took the idea from you in my campaign

Spell Merging (Su): Sorcerers can use multiple lower level spell slots to cast higher level spells. Whenever the sorcerer casts a spell, he can decide to either use up an appropriate spell slot of the same or higher level as the spell being cast as normal, or he can use up two or more spell slots, as long as the sum of the spell slot levels at least equals the level of the spell being cast. 0th level spell slots count as one-half spell level for this purpose. Spellstones (see below) cannot be used in conjunction with this ability.
Note: This could be changed into a metamagic feat, alternatively.

Uses a power of 2 rule a 1 st level worth 1 point, 2 worth 2, 3 worth 4, 4 worth 8 and so on. Having a feat modifying this rule could be nice too.

Errata to the Sorcerer's 'Spell Swapping' ability: Upon reaching 3rd level, and at ever odd-numbered sorcerer level after that (5th, 7th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. ...

Errata to Quicken Spell: Spontaneous casters can use Quicken Spell without an increase in casting time. Casting a quickened spell is a free action for a spontaneous caster, such as bard or sorcerer.
Errata to Metamagic Rods: Sorcerers can use Metamagic Rods without an increase in casting time.

Obviously the first part doesn't apply to my solution, I do the same for Quicken but not for the rod, and I am not planing in doing so except for the quicken rod.

New Item: Spellstone: Spellstones hold the essence of a spell slot that can be used for spontaneous casting. If the owner of a spellstone is able to spontaneously cast spells, he can use the spellstone instead of one of his own spell slots once per day, when spontaneously casting a spell. Cost: Level² x 1,000gp.

Simple and effective. What do you think?

Bye
Thanee

Interesting ... What is the maximum spell stone that can be carried and what is their weight?

 

[Thanee]

Thanee, from reading your previous post I know that you are a sorcerer lover, I agree I like them too, as adventurer they kick the wizard's ass.

Actually I am a bi-arcane-lover... I like them both!

But I think that allowing them quicker access to spell level makes them too powerfull, I would not allow that. I found sorcerer have a hard time until they reach 6 or 8 level depending on the campaign but after that...

I'll say it again... in short: either the psion loses this or the sorcerer gains this, otherwise there is no balance.

I only added the Cha based skill but not Gather information, I don't see why a sorcerer would be good at gathering information, they are not street people like rogue. I also see sorcerer as projecting a strong image of themselves but not being particularly intuitive about others. so no sense motive for me

Yeah, that's why I added the note. Not sure about those, really. I added them, since they would add something nicely different to the sorcerer, tho.

Uses a power of 2 rule a 1 st level worth 1 point, 2 worth 2, 3 worth 4, 4 worth 8 and so on. Having a feat modifying this rule could be nice too.

Points? What points? I'm not sure where you are coming from here...

Obviously the first part doesn't apply to my solution, I do the same for Quicken but not for the rod, and I am not planing in doing so except for the quicken rod.

Just a side question, how do wizards use rods IYC? During preparation or during casting?

Interesting ... What is the maximum spell stone that can be carried and what is their weight?

Same as pearl of power (it's simply the same item for spontaneous casters).

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

Points? What points? I'm not sure where you are coming from here...

Just a side question, how do wizards use rods IYC? During preparation or during casting?

Same as pearl of power (it's simply the same item for spontaneous casters).

Bye
Thanee

What I mean by points is that if you want to cast a 3rd level spell with lower level spell you need to either uses 4 1st level or 2 2nd level or 1 2nd level + 2 1st level. So to calculate how many slot are needed to cast a higher level spell using lower level slot I use this point system. Nothing to do with a point system like the Psionic.

Concerning the psionic part unbalance I still have to put my hands on the book to judge but I don't feel confident. Since I started playing D&D I always found the psionic a cool idea but I always felt that they were badly designed, in all editions. So I never had a single psionic in any of my campaing (I started to play in 83 and always as a DM).

Since casting from a rod is a full round action It can be applied during casting.

I like the idea of the new magic object might give it a try with the sorcerer.

 

[Thanee]

What I mean by points is that if you want to cast a 3rd level spell with lower level spell you need to either uses 4 1st level or 2 2nd level or 1 2nd level + 2 1st level. So to calculate how many slot are needed to cast a higher level spell using lower level slot I use this point system. Nothing to do with a point system like the Psionic.

Ahh, ok. Makes more sense now!

Since casting from a rod is a full round action It can be applied during casting.

Sidenote:

It's a full-round action for sorcerers only. That's a pretty clear rule.

If wizards can use them during casting, it makes them kinda unbalanced IMHO. I'd apply them during preparation (thereby granting feat usage (as normal for the class) and the bonus that no additional spell levels are needed). Otherwise wizards (and clerics, druids, ...) in addition gain the ability to spontaneously apply metamagic (no compensation for the bard or sorcerer and taking much away of their spontaneous ability). Just a thought.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Simple and effective. What do you think?

Bye
Thanee

I just wrote the most beautiful and articulate reply of my entire life on ENW, and my laptop crashed... I have to make it more short now...

I think you are going too far. Compare how many spells a Wizard knows each level with your Sorcerer, considering first of all only the spells he knows for free (I did of course, but thanks to my f%&*"¤$ laptop the tables are now gone). You will notice that the wizard knows only a very FEW spells more than the Sorcerer, and when they level up at odd levels they both learn 2 spells of the new higher level.
Then think of this: are those FEW known spells & the possibility to pay to learn more (with less money for magic gear) for the Wiz balanced with the extra spells/day and most importantly the spontanous casting of the Sor. They are not, really. Your Sorcerer is far more powerful than a core Wiz.

Whatever the initial assumptions, the conclusion is IMHO very bad.

Everything else can be done (feats, skills, and the little house rules you mentions are not at all a problem) to improve the Sor if you feel it's weak, but not your spellcasting tables.

If you want to grant the Sor (1) access to spell levels on par with the others and (2) more spells known, try to apply the Wizard Domains (from UA) to a Sorcerer, even if they are meant for wizards.

To summarize (again I did have a beautiful table here... ):
- your Sor would choose a domain
- the domain is made of 10 spells (one per level) already fixed
- your Sor would get 1 extra slot and 1 extra spell known of each spell level, but since they are based on Wiz spellcasting, he'll get access to higher spell levels as soon as the Wiz
It is still a good improvement over the core Sor, to which you can still grant bonus skills and feats if you desire.

 

[DarkMaster]

Ahh, ok. Makes more sense now!



Sidenote:

It's a full-round action for sorcerers only. That's a pretty clear rule.

If wizards can use them during casting, it makes them kinda unbalanced IMHO. I'd apply them during preparation (thereby granting feat usage (as normal for the class) and the bonus that no additional spell levels are needed). Otherwise wizards (and clerics, druids, ...) in addition gain the ability to spontaneously apply metamagic (no compensation for the bard or sorcerer and taking much away of their spontaneous ability). Just a thought.

Bye
Thanee

True, after reading the SRD it only applies to sorcerer (Don't use enough wizard to remember all those things ). Well, I will not change a thing then, what I tought was official is now house rule

 

[Hardhead]

Heard that from others, too.

Don't forget the Psionic Meditation feat. They could have written that directly into the table. Every psion will have it. It costs a feat, tho, which is - compared with the above sorcerer version - an actual cost.

Don't forget that Psions have to spend a move action to get thier focus back, even with their feat. Move + Standard actions = Full round! It's not quite the same, because they can still Quicken (they just don't get a move action that round), but for most purposes it is.

Your Sorcerers don't have to spend extra time (like psions do), and don't require a feat (like psions do). Of course, metapsionics cost the equivalent of one spell level less, so this is probably blanced, but it's just something to keep in mind.

 

[Thanee]

Your Sorcerers don't have to spend extra time (like psions do), and don't require a feat (like psions do).

Yep. At this point (as written above) sorcerers are actually better in metamagic than psions. However, psions have plenty (highly useful) metamagic effects for free!

Of course, metapsionics cost the equivalent of one spell level less, so this is probably blanced, but it's just something to keep in mind.

The lower level adjustment is more because of the scaling/augmentation issues. The feats are surely about equal one-by-one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think you are going too far.

Only as far as the XPH goes (not even in all areas, but keeping the sorcerer's strengths over the psion it would be unfair to grant them all the advantages he enjoys).


People say psions and wizards are equal.
People say sorcerers are underpowered compared to wizards.
I say sorcerers are underpowered compared to psions (pretty much everyone agrees here, I think).

The above brings the sorcerer on a level with the psion (some stuff is slightly better, some stuff is slightly worse, but overall it should be pretty fair compared to the psion), thus making him equal to the wizard as well.

Why is he better than the wizard now?

Or is the conclusion here, that what the people say is false?

Bye
Thanee