Reach and AoO for Hold the Line…

[Drasmir]

Reach and AoO for Hold the Line…

This argument came up the other day and I was not sure how to solve it based on the rules. As the situation stands, if an opponent with reach (10 ft) charges a dwarf PC with Hold the Line (able to make an attack of opportunity against a charge from opponent) and stops 10 ft away to make the attack (which he technically has to since you must stop a charge as soon as you can attack), does the dwarf, with 5 ft. reach, get an AoO even though he cannot reach the opponent? My player argues that he can attack the extended portion of the body that is attacking. I argue that since attacks of opportunity only work in his threatened range of 5 ft. he does not get to attack because the enemy is 10 ft away. My player thinks this makes hold the line (and Close Quarters Fighting which you should feel free to comment about here to) a completely wasted feat since it won’t work on creatures with reach.

Please let me know what you think as I have not come to any sure way to rule this one yet.

 

[AuraSeer]

You can only make an AoO when you threaten the opponent's square. In the case you describe, the dwarf never threatens his attacker, and therefore does not get an AoO.

Your player is correct that Hold The Line is useless in this situation. If he wants to use it against creatures with reach, he needs to wield a reach weapon, like a longspear.

 

[Drasmir]

That was my thought too. What do you think about the Close Quarters Combat situation against an opponent with Improved Grab, but has a 10ft. reach? My thoughts are the same, that the dwarf would not get an AoO since the opponent is out of threat range.

Anyone, anyone?

Bueller, Bueller?

 

[Sejs]

What do you think about the Close Quarters Combat situation against an opponent with Improved Grab, but has a 10ft. reach? My thoughts are the same, that the dwarf would not get an AoO since the opponent is out of threat range.

So what exactly is the opponent with reach trying to use that Improved Grab ability with? Good intentions?

Even if the dwarf doesn't threaten the body of the creature attempting to grab him, he most certainly does threaten the appendage that's trying to latch onto him. Which he can smack for his Close Quarters Combat AoO.

 

[Drasmir]

Even if the dwarf doesn't threaten the body of the creature attempting to grab him, he most certainly does threaten the appendage that's trying to latch onto him. Which he can smack for his Close Quarters Combat AoO.

You think he does threaten the dwarf with his appendage and that the dwarf can hit it??? I'm not opposed to this ruling, but I would like to know the justification. As I see it now, the appendage does not occupy a space and therefore is not threatened by the dwarf. If it were threatened that sounds a lot like a called shot from 2nd edition to hit a limb or other specific body part. By my reading of the rules right now it seems that since the enemy is 10 ft. away he can touch attack the dwarf to start the grapple without provoking since he is 10 ft. away.

 

[Olive]

So what exactly is the opponent with reach trying to use that Improved Grab ability with? Good intentions?

Even if the dwarf doesn't threaten the body of the creature attempting to grab him, he most certainly does threaten the appendage that's trying to latch onto him. Which he can smack for his Close Quarters Combat AoO.

This is another case of people confusing DnD with a realistic combat system. The rules don't back you up on this i'm afraid...

If you want to try to interpret it so it makes sense to you, then say that the opposed grapple checks are the dwarf dealing with the appendage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From the Main FAQ:

I know a spellcaster can't deliver a touch spell with a weapon, but can a spellcaster deliver a touch spell by
touching an opponent’s weapon? For example, suppose an
enemy fighter has a weapon with a 10-foot reach. Can a
spellcaster step into the area that fighter threatens and
touch the weapon to affect the wielder? Is there a limit on
how far a touch spell can travel through equipment?
For the purposes of most magical effects, touching a
creature’s equipment is exactly the same as touching the
creature. That’s why touch attacks ignore armor, natural armor,
and shields. The point of contact does have to be fairly close to
the target’s body, though.
There is no set limit to how far away a spellcaster can be
when delivering a touch spell, but the basic requirement is
being able to reach into the space the creature occupies. For
example, a human occupies a 5-foot space. Thus, a foe must be
able to reach into that space to deliver a touch attack, even if a
piece of the human’s equipment (such as 50 feet of dangling
rope or a manufactured reach weapon) sticks out of the space.
A creature with natural reach is an exception to this rule—
you can use a touch spell against such a creature by touching
one of its natural reach weapons, even if its body is out of your
reach. Such a tactic might require some preparation, however.
If a creature can reach you with a natural weapon (such as a
bite, claw, or tentacle), you can ready an action to use a touch
spell against that natural weapon when it is used to make a
melee attack against you. Though casting a spell usually
requires a standard action, you can cast the spell and try to
touch the target as your readied action, so long as the spell’s
casting time is 1 action or less. (This is just like casting a spell
and making a touch attack as part of your regular action.) If the
spell has a longer casting time, you must first cast it and then
hold the charge until it can be delivered to pull off this
maneuver.

Whether this ruling also applies to an AoO versus a Grapple-with-Reach, I'm not going to speculate. But it is a precedent for attacking a natural reach weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: Reach and AoO for Hold the Line…

This argument came up the other day and I was not sure how to solve it based on the rules. As the situation stands, if an opponent with reach (10 ft) charges a dwarf PC with Hold the Line (able to make an attack of opportunity against a charge from opponent) and stops 10 ft away to make the attack (which he technically has to since you must stop a charge as soon as you can attack), does the dwarf, with 5 ft. reach, get an AoO even though he cannot reach the opponent?

Nope, he has to have reach which in this case has to be 10 feet.

Had the Medium-sized dwarf been wielding a longspear (with 10-ft. reach), he could use his HTL feat and make an AoO as soon as the charger enters into the reach weapon's threatened area. That's the only effective way to fight opponent's with reach weapon's Otherwise, you could attack his mount (if any).