Reach vs. Combat Maneuver-provoked AOOs

[bestone]

I would allow disarming, but not sunder, as sunder is a standard action (I know some people disagree on this). The table in the PHB clearly excludes Sunder from AOOs (but allows disarm, trip, grapple).

I see no table that "clearly" excludes sunder from attacks of opportunity

i see one that shows standard actions and has sunder listed
Sunder a weapon (attack)

The brackets part... (attack) is because its an attack, and an attack is a standard action

As far as im concerned, ON Aoo's you can make melee attacks, you can use sunder in place of your your melee attack *as per the TEXT in sunder*. If its not on some table of things you can *but i highly doubt it says are the only things you can* do. It doesnt matter, you can make a melee attack, and sunder can be used as your melee attack

By your logic, a melee attack is listed as a standard action, so what now? your telling me it cant be used as an attack of opportunity? of course it can, because the TEXT says otherwise

text > tables

There is absolutely nothing saying you can not sunder on an attack of opportunity. Your reading into it too much, if you had multiple attacks, you could make multiple sunders

sunder is a melee attack, melee attacks are standard actions, you can still make a melee attack on an attack of opportunity

Oh wait, but you rationalize your "logic" by saying sunder is the only one on that table, trip grapple and disarm arent!

Well take a moment and actually think about this

Ding!

Trip grapple and disarm, like they say in the text, are entirely different forms of attacks, they dont use your melee attack to do them, they use a seperate different attack entirely, you make a touch attack and an opposed roll. And the action type varies because they have different uses, other than just in place of a melee attack.

They can be standard actions too...

 

[Slander]

A. And no AoO on the weapon.

Side note, do Wizards articles carry any weight, or are they treated dubiously? A 2 year old article clearly allows multiple sunders per round, and sundering as an AoO. It uses the phrase "you use the attack or full attack action" same as Disarms, Grapples and Trips, versus other maneuvers which specify "As a Standard action ..."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

 

[Hypersmurf]

By your logic, a melee attack is listed as a standard action, so what now?

I'd say, rather, the Attack (Melee) action is a standard action. It allows you to make a single melee attack. You can't take the Attack (Melee) action on an AoO; rather, you can make a single melee attack on an AoO. (For example, you can't activate Combat Expertise while taking an AoO, because Combat Expertise requires that you take the Attack action. You're making an attack, but not taking the Attack action, so just like when you Charge, it's not a valid opportunity to activate Combat Expertise.)

There is absolutely nothing saying you can not sunder on an attack of opportunity. Your reading into it too much, if you had multiple attacks, you could make multiple sunders

There's a footnote to the table of Actions in Combat that flags things that can be done once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or as an AoO. Trip, Grapple, and Disarm are so flagged. Sunder is not.

Trip grapple and disarm, like they say in the text, are entirely different forms of attacks, they dont use your melee attack to do them, they use a seperate different attack entirely, you make a touch attack and an opposed roll. And the action type varies because they have different uses, other than just in place of a melee attack.

The occasions Trip, Grapple, and Disarm can be used are once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or as an AoO.

The occasions Sunder can be used are... standard action.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

By RAW it's A. I would allow disarming and sundering on the weapon, though.

That's how we do it.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'd go with that one, too. You provoke an AoO, and most likely the only thing within reach is your weapon, so sunder / disarm it is. This brings a question, though: are you allowed to make a 5" step before making an AoO ?

No.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round

An Attack of Opportunity is not an Action (such as, a Standard Action: Attack [Melee] would be). It is simply a single melee attack.

 

[hong]

Otherwise I would be deflecting and snatching spear thrusts

I read that as "deing spear thrusts". Oh, my poor useless eyes!

 

[hong]

Curse you, grandma-filter. Curse you, I say.

 

[bestone]

There's a footnote to the table of Actions in Combat that flags things that can be done once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or as an AoO. Trip, Grapple, and Disarm are so flagged. Sunder is not.

text overrules tables, does it not?

q: On an attack of opportunity you can make a melee attack
a: Yes
(i think this is pretty clear, no arguing here?)

q: does it or does it not say, You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
a: Why yes, yes it does.

I've yet to see anyone argue either of those points, so we'll assume they are true

so Why cant you use your melee attack during your attack of opportunity to strike a weapon or shield?

It seems both legal and right to me.

Your argument, i assume, is footnote 7? These attacks substitute a melee attack part?
your saying "if they would have wanted sunder to work, they would have put it in there"

I disagree, Sunder in its description specifically says it substitutes a melee attack, those
other forms of attack dont. So your deducing from the footnote *which is text* which says they replace melee attacks, that they work as such, but sunder *which sames the same thing under the sunder description, but not in the footnote* doesnt

Like i said, it says under sunder it does just that, its only specified for the other attacks because they are special forms of attacks alltogeather with opposed rolls. Its stated that they replace melee attacks, because it doesnt state that in thier description, like it does with sunder.

Most people i argue this with state that yeah you can use it as one or all of your attacks
in a full round action because it replaces an attack. But thats the same as what im saying, otherwise your telling me that you can only ever use a sunder as a standard action, meaning you get 1 attack which is a sunder a turn *which is nothing like what is written under the sunder description*

pretty big assumption i think, that even tho the text states you can use it as a melee attack that since the table labels it as a standard action you cant use it in place of your melee attack on an attack of opportunity

Edit: Dont want to thread jack here, so if you wanna continue on this hyp, i'll debate with you in a new thread, but lets not continue here

 

[Hypersmurf]

q: does it or does it not say, You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
a: Why yes, yes it does.

Oh, I agree - that's exactly what it says, in the description of the Sunder action. Which description can only apply if you're actually taking the Sunder action.

So what happens when you take the Sunder standard action? You look in the text, and you find that (when you take the Sunder standard action) you can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

On the other hand, if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, the text found in the description of said action is irrelevant; if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, you can't use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Edit: Dont want to thread jack here, so if you wanna continue on this hyp, i'll debate with you in a new thread, but lets not continue here

Or find one of the dozens of other threads covering the argument over the last few years

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

Or find one of the dozens of other threads covering the argument over the last few years

-Hyp.

Here this should settle it http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity.