Reach Weapons, Monks, Whirlwind Attack

[youspoonybard]

I asked -

"Thinking about another thread, I wondered:

If I was holding two weapons (say, a sword and a shield), and was making a full attack, and had a BAB +6 or higher, normally I could make two attacks at +6/+1 with my sword.

Could I make one of those attacks with my sword, and one with my shield? If I was doing so, would I suffer TWF penalties? I understand that one of those attacks would have 1/2 str bonus to damage...

What about switching ends of a double weapon? What would my str modifier be?

Thank you!"

Hyp responded -

"Okay, let's make this interesting.

I have the Quickdraw feat and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and a BAB of +6.

I have a dagger in my right hand and two sheathed daggers.

A. I stab with twice with the dagger in my right hand.

B. I Quickdraw a dagger with my left hand, stab twice with my right, and once with my left.

C. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, drop it, Quickdraw another in my right hand, and stab again.

D. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, drop it, Quickdraw another in my left hand, and stab again.

E. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, change it to my left hand, and stab again.

F. I stab twice with the dagger in my right hand, Quickdraw a dagger with my left hand, and stab once with my left.

G. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, Quickdraw a dagger with my left hand, stab once with my left, then once more with my right.

H. I stab twice with the dagger in my right hand, change it to my left hand, and stab again.

I. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, change it to my left hand, stab again, change back, and stab one more time.

J. I stab once with the dagger in my right hand, drop it, Quickdraw both sheathed daggers, and stab again once with each hand.

Q1. Which of these are possible?
Q2. Which of these incur TWF penalties?"

 

[blargney the second]

Option Z: Use a race that has multiple arms. Use two arms for a reach weapon, the others for close weapons. (I'm using a thri-kreen with guisarme, claw, bite, and shield spike attacks.)

-blarg

 

[Hypersmurf]

You do get penalties for using an off-hand weapon, even if you are using the sequentially.

An example is using a Defending weapon in your off-hand: even if you don't use it to make an off-hand attack, benefitting from the AC bonus incurs TWF penalties.

-Hyp.

 

[The Souljourner]

If you DM thinks that the monk's unarmed strike requires at least one free hand

Then he'd be wrong, seeing as the monk unarmed strike *specifically* mentions that it can be done without needing a free hand.

This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

The small longspear speaks of way too much cheese, in my opinion. The monk/guisarme seems to be a little more legitimate, and besides, fits my character concept perfectly.

BTW, Youspoonybard.... is your name a quote from a campaign? It sounds just like someone was intentionally misquoting "You Dirty Rat". My gaming group is riddled with quotes like that - "Who wouldn't be aroused by a duck in their pants?" "I'd sit on just about anything if it turned into gold." "Guess what I'm not going to kill Death with... a table leg."



-The Souljourner

 

[The Souljourner]

An example is using a Defending weapon in your off-hand: even if you don't use it to make an off-hand attack, benefitting from the AC bonus incurs TWF penalties.

-Hyp.

Not that I doubt you, since I seem to remember hearing that before, but still.... says who? I don't see it under the defending enchantment.

-The Souljourner

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not that I doubt you, since I seem to remember hearing that before, but still.... says who? I don't see it under the defending enchantment.

3E Main FAQ:
Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to
use its power? Or could you hold a longsword of defending
in your left hand, not use it to attack (so you are not
actually using the two weapons) and still wield a sword in
your right hand without penalties? Or is the defending
bonus considered part of the normal parrying that happens
in the background?
Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Norfleet]

Q1. Which of these are possible?
Q2. Which of these incur TWF penalties?

All of these should be possible. Any of the cases where you make 3 attacks is penalized by TWFing. I forget whether 3.5E still has the offhand strength and accuracy penalty, but if it does, in all cases where the attack is made with the offhand, you'd suffer those penalties. I don't recall seeing it, though, so that might have been removed.

BTW, Youspoonybard.... is your name a quote from a campaign?

The Spoony Bard is a quote from FF II US/IV Jap.

 

[youspoonybard]

: P

What about my question, though?

What if I have BAB +6, and I'm up against an enemy with cold resistance. I smack him with my quarterstaff (using it as a 2-handed weapon, so getting 3/2 str), but notice that the frost property has no effect.

Can I smack him with the flaming end of the staff? What would my damage from strength be?

Can I attack an enemy with a sword, drop it, quickdraw a greatsword, put my other hand on it, and get 3/2 str damage to that?

Which hand is my off hand?

And unfortunately, I haven't been playing so long. The oddest quote that's come up in my campaign went something like this: "I have nightmares too. I'm attacked by flying pastries."

 

[Snipehunt]

Then he'd be wrong, seeing as the monk unarmed strike *specifically* mentions that it can be done without needing a free hand.

-The Souljourner

I agree with you, but I've seen distinctions drawn between (1)holding something in two hands, and (2) attacking with a weapon in two hands, and then trying to make an unarmed strike. The second is not simply "holding" something, but attacking with something. I think that certainly shouldn't carry over to an AoO, but the counterargument is that rounds are supposed to be "simultaneous," and then I get a headache and stop paying attention to the argument.

Why do you think it's cheesy to use a small longspear? It's just a lighter version of the medium longspear. I don't like the sizing rules much, but there they are. Use 'em, or be used by 'em.

 

[The Souljourner]

3E Main FAQ:
Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to
use its power?
Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon.
-Hyp.

Cool, thanks. I knew I'd seen it somewhere. But still, that's a different thing. Using that FAQ entry, the defending enchantment effectively says "you must be actually fighting with this weapon to get the AC benefit". However, we're not talking about getting any sort of benefit from the second weapon except the ability to threaten a square with it.

If you are sitting in the middle of combat, holding a longsword in one hand and not attacking with it (whether because you're casting a spell, taunting your opponent, or just sitting on your duff), you still are considered threatening all the squares you can reach with it. Why is it not the same with an offhand weapon? Just because you're not attacking with it doesn't mean you don't threaten with it. Same goes for unarmed strike. Just because you're not technically unarmed doesn't mean you can't use the monk's ability. It's the strike that's unarmed, not the monk as a whole.

As for offhand attacks... they've pretty much done away with that in 3.5. In 3.5 everyone is ambidextrous. You can fight with your left just as well as with your right. The only change is when you're fighting with two weapons, in which case you designate one as the "off" hand, and that one gets the craptastic modifiers. So switching between hands shouldn't ever matter, only using them both at the same time.

-The Souljourner