Reach weapons that dont reach?

[xazil]

Continuing a tangent that accurred to me in the Powerful build thread. Does a reach weapon ever cease being a reach weapon in a creatures hands?

Every reach weapon in the core rules is a twohanded weapon signifying its large size to extend the area threated around a character. But a weapon that is one or two sizes smaller than the character becomes one or two stages easier to use, with each size change incurring a -2 penalty to hit.

Is there a statement somewhere that a creature must be using a weapon of its own size to get reach from the weapon?

A medium creature with a small longspear can use it one handed, or even use a tiny longspear as a light weapon.

Will rogues of the future run around dual wielding tiny spears with finesse and poking from 10' away?

Although a dwarf using a gnome glaive as a battle axe that is -2 to hit for 10' reach actually sounds interesting.

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, what I read in the SRD doesn't satisfy me very much...

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Notice how it makes the difference between a small/medium creature striking a 10ft but not 5ft, and a large creature striking at 20ft and 15ft but not 10ft or 5ft. It mentions "appropriate size", which may mean that if he wields a smaller reach weapon it may not increase the reach...? Also, if reach weapons "double" the natural reach, a tiny or smaller creature with natural reach 0ft simply won't benefit from its reach weapons?

Anyway, all the weapons in the SRD simply say that "you can strike opponents 10ft away", this could be because by default the description is for small/medium weapons.

But then read the whip:

The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

The whip seems to have its own reach, it doesn't say it "triples" your reach, it just has a reach of 15ft. Furthermore, my favourite part is when it says that you can use it to strike at your own reach... so if you have reach 5ft and the whip has reach 15ft you cannot strike at 10ft? That's obviously not how we play it.

I think someone spoke about treating reach weapons as adding 5ft to your minimum and maximum reach, but I don't know where this ruling comes from...

 

[Hypersmurf]

It mentions "appropriate size", which may mean that if he wields a smaller reach weapon it may not increase the reach...?[/b]

Appropriate size is only mentioned for the Large creature, though.

Also, if reach weapons "double" the natural reach, a tiny or smaller creature with natural reach 0ft simply won't benefit from its reach weapons?

Savage Species actually did an almost-good job with reworking reach weapons, but 3.5 pretty much went back to the original 3E method.

If we fix the Savage Species system so it's intuitive, and convert it to 3.5, what it does is to give reach weapons a 'reach modifier'.

So a Medium reach weapon shifts a creature's natural reach out by 5 feet. A human normally threatens one square at 5'; a Medium longspear shifts that one square outwards to 10'. An ogre normally threatens two squares, at 5' and 10'; a Medium longspear shifts them one square outwards, to 10' and 15'.

A Large reach weapon shifts reach by 10'. So an ogre with a Large longspear threatens 15' and 20'. A human Monkey-Gripping a Large longspear threatens 15', but not 5' or 10'.

Tiny creatures are a special case; with Reach weapons they threaten 5', but cannot attack creatures in their own squares. A Small or larger creature with a Tiny Reach weapon treats it as not-a-Reach-weapon.

It's a more complicated system, but it handles the "What about inappropriate size?" question much better.

The whip seems to have its own reach, it doesn't say it "triples" your reach, it just has a reach of 15ft. Furthermore, my favourite part is when it says that you can use it to strike at your own reach... so if you have reach 5ft and the whip has reach 15ft you cannot strike at 10ft? That's obviously not how we play it.

The 'your reach' refers to the 15', not your natural reach.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Appropriate size is only mentioned for the Large creature, though.

Yes I noticed that also...

It's a more complicated system, but it handles the "What about inappropriate size?" question much better.

This is the method I recalled, and it's not complicated after all.

 

[Piratecat]

Man, I detest the 3.5 weapon system. I'm a little surprised by how completely unnecessary I consider it.

I think the reach modifier for a weapon is the simplest and most intuitive way to handle the problem, in any case.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Man, I detest the 3.5 weapon system. I'm a little surprised by how completely unnecessary I consider it.

I've found I've gotten thoroughly used to it... but it still seems highly unnecessary

I think the reach modifier for a weapon is the simplest and most intuitive way to handle the problem, in any case.

Yeah. I phrased it better than Savage Species did, from memory - like I say, they almost got a workable system in place. If I were running a long-term campaign, I might implement it that way.

-Hyp.