Readied actions

[scottchiefbaker]

If my party is NOT in combat and we approach a door I suspect has monsters on the other side of it, can I ready an action after another character opens the door? My understanding is that you have to be "in combat" to ready an action, but that seems a little strange in the event I want to launch a sneak attack: kick the door open and launch a couple magic missiles.

 

[keterys]

Effectively, no. It's more complex, but the real answer is that your readied action is to roll initiative, possibly taking your surprise round (or not)

 

[Turtlejay]

Effectively, no. It's more complex, but the real answer is that your readied action is to roll initiative, possibly taking your surprise round (or not)

Sure, you could go this way. Since you are not in combat though, 85% of the combat rules and arguments are thrown out. Out of combat, PC's are a little more free to do things. I see no problem with your character making a plan, and following through, *before* initiative is rolled:

"I suspect there is a guard in that tower. I have now managed to stealthily sneak to it's base. I am currently climbing the ladder. Once I get to the top and peek over, I would like to toss my dagger at him"

That is a good application of the Surprise Round. How about:

"The Wizard cloaked us all in invisibility. We rounded the corner and saw three Hobgoblin guards sitting around a table playing cards. I would like to sneak into the room and light the table on fire. In the ensuing commotion, we should have an advantage in the fight."

So the rest of the party cannot ready an action for when they see the table go up in flames? Because we are not in combat? Clumsily modelling this as a combat is silly (roll initiative, go by rounds, but since the Hobgoblins are unaware of the PC's they do nothing on their runs) when you could allow this stunt to be a moment to remember.

I say outside of combat readied actions are fine. In the above case, everyone is waiting, tensed to pounce, and when the oil flask hits the lantern in the center of the table, they attack. Not, they roll initiative, and get one action, they attack. They get their readied action, then combat as normal.

Yes, the distinction is small, but to me it is real and I am allowed to be cranky about it. Like Santa Claus.

Jay

 

[Mengu]

Readied actions are only meaningful when one side has them, and the other does not. And that's typically called a surprise round.

So in the OP's case if you have readied actions to do something when someone opens the door, and the enemies behind the door have readied actions to shoot intruders when the door is opened, whose readied action goes first? You roll initiative, no need for a surprise round, you're in combat. If the enemies are unaware, you still roll initiative, and those readied actions are what you take during the surprise round, and the enemy does not get to act. The initiative also serves a neat purpose lining up the PC's "readied action" order. They can of course always delay.

In Turtlejay's example, the moment the table goes on fire, I'd have everyone roll initiative. Assuming enemies are unaware, the PC's would get a surprise round. And then the enemies enter the initiative order.

A readied action against an unaware enemy is no different than a surprise round.

 

[Turtlejay]

Meh, you're right. In my head I formulated a good argument for readying occuring out of combat, but either I am unable to make it come out right, or there is no real difference.

Either way, you're right.

Jay

 

[Turtlejay]

Okay, so I figured out what the issue was.

The binary nature of "Surprise, you're stabbed!" is what does it. Sadly, this is not really a rules-that-can-be-debated issue as much as it is a rules don't do it issue.

Say the Nazgul were successful in sneaking into Frodo's room. They would get a surprise round on Frodo. Being Halflings (Hobbitses) with their +2 Dex, and prediliction for playing Rogues, if that first attack missed (it happens) there is a chance that the next round would have them up and out. If the auto-crit didn't kill them.

Now, Arnold Schartzineeggerrr is walking through the jungle, and the Predator is stealthily tracking him. He *knows* that something wants to kill him and his every muscle is tensed. The Predator lets loose with his spear, and misses. Then we have almost the exact situation as Frodo.

So yeah, a little of the Simulationist bent is showing itself, but the *degree* of surprise in the surprise round has no effect on the game, when somehow, intuitively, I thought it should. I tried to voice that with two scenarios, one with the aware tower guard and one with the preoccupied dungeon guards, but even *I* was not sure where I was going with that.

I guess I don't know where to go from here. That is the problem.

Jay

 

[Ryujin]

In the original post, what is to stop this mechanic from derailing every potential surprise situation? At every door they ready an attack action?

Surprise and initiative take into account things like when you recognize a credible threat. The door opens and you are about to launch your Magic Missiles, but don't recognize a target. Suddenly a Gnoll leans around the corner and buries his axe in your shoulder.OK, NOW you have a target.

Clever arguments should never invalidate an entire game mechanic.

 

[sfedi]

Yes, been on alert or been unaware of danger doesn't change the initiative/surprise dynamic.

The alertness of someone would modify his Perception roll, and having weapons on hand, illuminating appropiately their surroundings, etc.

 

[Ryujin]

If anyone is walking around without a weapon drawn then they batter have quick draw or an appropriate familiar to draw their implement/weapon, because they're going to miss out on a potential free attack based on gaining surprise otherwise.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, been on alert or been unaware of danger doesn't change the initiative/surprise dynamic.

Sure it does. Surprise is not possible against an alert enemy who is aware of the potential of an attack. In 4e surprise is entirely a DM mediated factor. It doesn't rely on any particular die rolls (though the DM is certainly free to arbitrate it with dice).

The predator is invisible and Arnie doesn't make a high enough perception check to sense him, surprise. Etc. Whenever you get the jump on someone, you get a free action before they can do anything. Makes sense to me. It is quite possible that when you surprise a monster it will be ahead of you in the initiative order. So yes, you could get one action and then the monster could be next to take its turn as the next round starts. If you want to be really effective at getting the jump on someone, then you should buff up your initiative and high dex characters are always going to have a bit of an advantage here.

There could certainly be situations where there is even more too it than that. Like the example of a sleeping character being attacked. Even after he's attacked he's not automatically awake and alert. If the first attack on him misses he's going to need to make a perception check to wake up and get into the fight. It could easily be a round or two before that happens.