Readied actions

[DracoSuave]

There could certainly be situations where there is even more too it than that. Like the example of a sleeping character being attacked. Even after he's attacked he's not automatically awake and alert. If the first attack on him misses he's going to need to make a perception check to wake up and get into the fight. It could easily be a round or two before that happens.

After the attack action has resolved, the attacker is no longer using Stealth. Therefore there is no DC to check Perception against, and the character becomes aware of his attacker.

Granted, using Stealth to get into that position is rather academic, as the character is effectively blind--but attacking breaks Stealth. (unless they have an ability that says otherwise)

Yes, been on alert or been unaware of danger doesn't change the initiative/surprise dynamic.

The alertness of someone would modify his Perception roll, and having weapons on hand, illuminating appropiately their surroundings, etc.

In fact, the current surprise/stealth/perception rules take the fact that you're not a complete senseless bafoon into account, that you'll actually put on your game face when you're raiding a fortress of evil goblin slavers--that, effectively, you'll operate under the assumption that you'll actually encounter danger when you go into dangerous places.

The Surprise round isn't interested if you think there's an enemy somewhere around there. It's interested if you KNOW there's a SPECIFIC enemy right there.

If no one is aware that specific enemy exists and where that enemy is, that specific enemy gets a surprise round. If they are unaware of you and your presence, specifically you, you get a surprise round.

If neither side is making Stealth checks (a reasonable thing in many situations) then both sides are aware of each other automatically and there is no surprise round at all.

Also, Surprise is not based on -side- but on -combatant.- In most situations, it shouldn't be an issue. Most combatants aren't sneaking around in total cover, concealment, or what have you. It's a rare few that do, and -those- guys get their surprise rounds.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

After the attack action has resolved, the attacker is no longer using Stealth. Therefore there is no DC to check Perception against, and the character becomes aware of his attacker.

Granted, using Stealth to get into that position is rather academic, as the character is effectively blind--but attacking breaks Stealth. (unless they have an ability that says otherwise)

When you're asleep, you're unconscious (see "Conditions," page 277). You wake up if you take damage or if you make a successful Perception check (with a -5 penalty) to hear sounds of danger.

Stealth is not required in this specific case. As long as you haven't taken damage, you have to keep rolling to wake up. Its BAD to get caught while sleeping...

In fact, the current surprise/stealth/perception rules take the fact that you're not a complete senseless bafoon into account, that you'll actually put on your game face when you're raiding a fortress of evil goblin slavers--that, effectively, you'll operate under the assumption that you'll actually encounter danger when you go into dangerous places.

The Surprise round isn't interested if you think there's an enemy somewhere around there. It's interested if you KNOW there's a SPECIFIC enemy right there.

If no one is aware that specific enemy exists and where that enemy is, that specific enemy gets a surprise round. If they are unaware of you and your presence, specifically you, you get a surprise round.

If neither side is making Stealth checks (a reasonable thing in many situations) then both sides are aware of each other automatically and there is no surprise round at all.

Also, Surprise is not based on -side- but on -combatant.- In most situations, it shouldn't be an issue. Most combatants aren't sneaking around in total cover, concealment, or what have you. It's a rare few that do, and -those- guys get their surprise rounds.

Well, yes technically surprise can exist for different combatants regardless of side. Usually one side can't be surprised at all, but some members of the other side may avoid surprise due to superior perception or having certain feats.

Even a party which is not using stealth can potentially surprise its opponents. DMG Page 37 has some things to say about that. For instance a party can surprise monsters on the other side of a door even when not using stealth per-se as long as they aren't actively making a big racket. The monsters MAY depending on their alertness level get a passive or active check.

As I said before, as a general rule the application of surprise really rests in the hands of the DM. He can set monster alertness, define DCs of different kinds to achieve surprise, define conditions under which surprise is possible, etc. There are plenty of published examples of this kind of thing. Using Stealth is obviously a common way surprise happens, but even then its really up to the DM in any practical sense. Using skills like Bluff and Insight can also create or defeat surprise in specific situations because surprise happens when an attack is unexpected, not simply when one side doesn't sense the other.

 

[DracoSuave]

Stealth is not required in this specific case. As long as you haven't taken damage, you have to keep rolling to wake up. Its BAD to get caught while sleeping...

And what is the DC to make a Perception check against someone in the same room as you who is unhidden and not concealed?

The answer is: Automatic. He has just made noise, and is adjacent to you.

Or you -could- rule that it's a DC of 0, and at -5, means you need a Passive Perception of -5 or higher to notice it.

Given the absolute minimum for Passive Perception is 9 I think this isn't a problem.

Well, yes technically surprise can exist for different combatants regardless of side. Usually one side can't be surprised at all, but some members of the other side may avoid surprise due to superior perception or having certain feats.

This is correct.

Even a party which is not using stealth can potentially surprise its opponents. DMG Page 37 has some things to say about that. For instance a party can surprise monsters on the other side of a door even when not using stealth per-se as long as they aren't actively making a big racket. The monsters MAY depending on their alertness level get a passive or active check.

This is also correct.

As I said before, as a general rule the application of surprise really rests in the hands of the DM. He can set monster alertness, define DCs of different kinds to achieve surprise, define conditions under which surprise is possible, etc. There are plenty of published examples of this kind of thing. Using Stealth is obviously a common way surprise happens, but even then its really up to the DM in any practical sense. Using skills like Bluff and Insight can also create or defeat surprise in specific situations because surprise happens when an attack is unexpected, not simply when one side doesn't sense the other.

I actually have to agree with the use of Bluff/Passive Insight here. That's a -very- good use of surprise, in a social situation where suddenly, daggers come out and the enemy is caught flat footed.

Woot to -that-.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And what is the DC to make a Perception check against someone in the same room as you who is unhidden and not concealed?

The answer is: Automatic. He has just made noise, and is adjacent to you.

Or you -could- rule that it's a DC of 0, and at -5, means you need a Passive Perception of -5 or higher to notice it.

Given the absolute minimum for Passive Perception is 9 I think this isn't a problem.

Only if you're conscious and looking. Unconscious people don't follow the same rules necessarily. AFAIK there is actually no specific rule here. That would kind of indicate to me that its up to the DM. There are a few ways you can handle it. One is to use the rules on page 37 of the DMG, which were written with doors in mind but can certainly be applied to other similar situations like this. Another option would be to set a DC like a hard level 1 DC (15). Another option would be to say that while attacking reveals an opponent in a normal combat situation this isn't necessarily true if you're unconscious. In other words you treat the creature as if it is still hidden to you and roll against its stealth check with -5. The last option seems pretty good to me overall, but anyway.

Another way to think about it is that yes the enemy is now revealed to the guy that took damage. OK, he will wake up automatically. That doesn't mean anyone else does, they still have to make perception checks. Really its not that big a deal since anyone who gets hit is now screaming their head off presumably and the rest of the party will be awake real soon now.

Finally though it seems to me like if the DM is going to have your camp invaded at night its either a setup or a nuisance encounter. I'm thinking overall its going to be pretty much a setpiece arranged by the DM.

 

[DracoSuave]

Only if you're conscious and looking. Unconscious people don't follow the same rules necessarily. AFAIK there is actually no specific rule here. That would kind of indicate to me that its up to the DM. There are a few ways you can handle it. One is to use the rules on page 37 of the DMG, which were written with doors in mind but can certainly be applied to other similar situations like this. Another option would be to set a DC like a hard level 1 DC (15). Another option would be to say that while attacking reveals an opponent in a normal combat situation this isn't necessarily true if you're unconscious. In other words you treat the creature as if it is still hidden to you and roll against its stealth check with -5. The last option seems pretty good to me overall, but anyway.

Another way to think about it is that yes the enemy is now revealed to the guy that took damage. OK, he will wake up automatically. That doesn't mean anyone else does, they still have to make perception checks. Really its not that big a deal since anyone who gets hit is now screaming their head off presumably and the rest of the party will be awake real soon now.

Finally though it seems to me like if the DM is going to have your camp invaded at night its either a setup or a nuisance encounter. I'm thinking overall its going to be pretty much a setpiece arranged by the DM.

One thing to be -severely- concerned about is the fact those enemies are going to be getting almost automatic coup-de-graces in this situation anyways. The enemy gets to use their best power, with combat advantage, against a prone enemy who cannot see them.

That's +9 to hit right there.

+9 to hit for maximum damage + other critical effects that may occur. With their best power.

Yeah... I don't really see this as fun if on the rare occasion the monster misses, the player attacked still has to make Perception checks against a monster that has just gone for the kill.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One thing to be -severely- concerned about is the fact those enemies are going to be getting almost automatic coup-de-graces in this situation anyways. The enemy gets to use their best power, with combat advantage, against a prone enemy who cannot see them.

That's +9 to hit right there.

+9 to hit for maximum damage + other critical effects that may occur. With their best power.

Yeah... I don't really see this as fun if on the rare occasion the monster misses, the player attacked still has to make Perception checks against a monster that has just gone for the kill.

Yeah, perhaps not. In any case that's pretty much why I say things like that are more in the line of 'DM setpiece' where the DM is going to decide how it goes down based on what his story is. There are a few ways a DM could think about that. He could use some relatively weak monsters and just have the PCs wake up and fight out the tactically disadvantageous situation and its just a matter of they take damage and get their rest interrupted. He could run a 'monsters capture the party' scenario where the monsters do non-lethal damage and everyone wakes up in the morning with a bad headache in some prison. No doubt other possibilities exist.

 

[the Jester]

Here is a simple way of looking at it.

The "ready" action is used to interrupt someone else's initiative. It then shifts your initiative down.

This makes no sense unless you are on initiative.

 

[Ryujin]

Here is a simple way of looking at it.

The "ready" action is used to interrupt someone else's initiative. It then shifts your initiative down.

This makes no sense unless you are on initiative.

The ready action isn't an interrupt, it's a reaction.

 

[the Jester]

The ready action isn't an interrupt, it's a reaction.

True enough, but my point still stands. It moves your initiative around in response to someone else's actions on initiative.

If you can ready attacks off initiative, don't you think that all the monsters will do that too, while they are standing around waiting for adventurers to attack them? Especially once there's a known attack going on?

 

[Mistwell]

On the broader subject of readied actions, here is a trick one of my DMs pulls pretty much every single combat.

First, he moves each foe wherever they want to go, setting up flanking and such.

Then each foe attacks, using said flanking each time.

This is justified by saying each foe is simply moving, then readying an action to attack as soon as that target is attacked by one of their allies.

So the last foe to move into position is the first to attack, and then all the rest attack due to their readied action.

Resulting in our defender (who is out front) granting combat advantage virtually every single combat, with a horde around him.

And as the player of that defender, I've reacted by often using brash strike. Heck, I'm already granting combat advantage, I might as well get a bonus along with it. Plus, it's OK that I get swarmed, that's my job as defender.