Readied Bull Rush and Concentration Checks

[cats_claw]

If a monster readies a charge/bullrush contingent on a spellcaster starting to cast a spell, how will the concentration check get determined if the creature hits? Or even if they miss?

"Violent Motion" (DC 15 + spell level) or something else? I would submit that getting bashed back 5 feet is more disruptive than a bouncy ride in a wagon.

Is there somethign about this in a spatbook or addressed other than the PHB?

catsclaw

 

[GiantInThePlayground]

I don't believe it is addressed anywhere.

While a case could be made that a violent jolt from a linebacker might me the equivilent of "extraordinarily violent motion", there is a point where you don't want to turn Bull Rush into the de facto method for disrupting spells. The DC of 20+spell level (after an opposed strength check) seems more favorable for disrupting than a standard attack with a DC of 10+damage+spell level, at least until higher levels. Many spellcasters will have lower Strength checks than ACs, after all, and the charger will get an extra +2 for charging.

I would say that 15+spell level is fair, but I would test it out. If your players start Bull Rushing all the time because it's the surefire way to disrupt spells, obviously it needs to be looked at again.

 

[cats_claw]

I don't believe it is addressed anywhere.

While a case could be made that a violent jolt from a linebacker might me the equivilent of "extraordinarily violent motion", there is a point where you don't want to turn Bull Rush into the de facto method for disrupting spells. The DC of 20+spell level (after an opposed strength check) seems more favorable for disrupting than a standard attack with a DC of 10+damage+spell level, at least until higher levels. Many spellcasters will have lower Strength checks than ACs, after all, and the charger will get an extra +2 for charging.

I would say that 15+spell level is fair, but I would test it out. If your players start Bull Rushing all the time because it's the surefire way to disrupt spells, obviously it needs to be looked at again.

I think I'll try 15+spell level+ attacker's size modifier (minus size modifier of mage -- the mage could be an cloud giant!). Obviously the results of a Hill Giant winning a bull rush opposed roll over a mage is more potent than a kobold winning a bull rush opposed roll over the mage. It will be interesting to play out.

catsclaw

 

[silentspace]

I don't think you can ready a charge or a bull rush, can you?

Edit: You can't ready a charge, but you can ready a bull rush (not as part of a charge).

Edit: I'm by no means a rules lawyer, so I could be wrong. The above is from the SRD, there might be more on it elsewhere.

 

[cats_claw]

I don't think you can ready a charge or a bull rush, can you?

Edit: You can't ready a charge, but you can ready a bull rush (not as part of a charge).

Edit: I'm by no means a rules lawyer, so I could be wrong. The above is from the SRD, there might be more on it elsewhere.

I am not sure, that's a good point. A charge is a full round action and a bull rush is a standard action. Can you ready a move, then attack? As long as your initiative is putting you before the opponent, can you make your full round of actions? I am thinking that since a Ready is a standard action, all you can do with a ready is a standard action, but you can move, then ready.

If I bull rush the mage, I think I need to be in the next square anyway. Hmmm.... so.. If I am 5' from mage and I ready "bull rush if mage starts to cast spell" and then the mage does a 5' step and spell, can I get in the bull rush or do I need to be explicit about "ready if mage casts spell or goes 5' to cast".

Can I even make a ready like that? Is that not specific enough?

Actually, as the DM, I am looking at this as a way to suprise my player mages with a simple yet powerful tactic to use against them. More of a shocker than a killer to wipe them out. They've been feeling awful powerful and as a result been awful careless lately and I wanted to show them that even the simplist things can get to you if you aren't careful.

catsclaw

 

[Steve Jung]

From the PHB, page 160

Charge—Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action…. You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

So no on a readied charge, but a bull rush standard action would be fine. Not sure about the Concentration DC, though.

 

[cats_claw]

From the PHB, page 160

So no on a readied charge, but a bull rush standard action would be fine. Not sure about the Concentration DC, though.

When you bull rush, you step into the square of the person you are rushing. If you can take a 5' step as part of a ready, then it appears that you may step 5' then move into the square, so if a mage is within 10' you can ready a bull rush, then if they try to cast, step 5' and then the next 5' into her square and smash her one.

interesting... but any mage worth his salt will be as far away from melee as possible.

catsclaw

 

[Pagan priest]

But it is possible to use charge at times when a full round action is not available (since 3.5 no longer has partial actions, I can't use that term). With that in mind, it opens the possibility of readying a charge. I would say that the obvious limitations include: No movement during the charge round, clearly defined trigger for the charge, meet all conditions to allow a charge, at the time of the charge (clear, straight line to target, etc).

If these conditions are met, why shouldn't a charge be allowed?

 

[Artoomis]

But it is possible to use charge at times when a full round action is not available (since 3.5 no longer has partial actions, I can't use that term). With that in mind, it opens the possibility of readying a charge. I would say that the obvious limitations include: No movement during the charge round, clearly defined trigger for the charge, meet all conditions to allow a charge, at the time of the charge (clear, straight line to target, etc).

If these conditions are met, why shouldn't a charge be allowed?

You are both correct and incorrect. Most folks say you cannot Ready a Charge in 3.5, but you are right that is it possible to read it in such a way as to allow it.

 

[The Souljourner]

Any time you could ready a bull rush (or 5' step and bullrush), you could ready an attack (or 5' step and attack). That being said, most people will do an average of at least 5 damage. I think that since bullrush does no damage, it might be best to have the check be at 20+spell level, making it more difficult to pass, but at the expense of not getting to do any real damage.

Of course, that may be too good... also keep in mind that any movement you force upon the mage may cause an attack of opportunity on him, which is damage during casting, and thus would also cause a concentration check.

-The Souljourner (who is planning a werebear bullrusher as we speak)

P.S. Most people agree that you can't ready a charge in 3.5, though I can easily see how you could interpret it the other way (and I think the other way is just as valid).