D&D 5E Readied Spell Question (Phandelver)

[Werebat]

Ran the first session of my Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign this evening. We're all new to 5E and learning as we go.

In the first combat, where two of the four goblins were firing from the brush and hiding every round as a bonus action (as goblins can do), I was rolling well and things weren't going well for the PCs. No one was able to see the ranged gobbos when they did their "shoot/hide/move" routine.

Finally the wizard got the idea to ready a ranged cantrip (fire bolt?) to hit a goblin when he saw it pop up and shoot.

According to the rules, a hidden attacker becomes visible when the attack happens, whether it hits or misses.

A readied action can precede and attack it is readied against. However, the wizard's reaction couldn't happen until he could see the goblin, which doesn't happen until the moment its attack is resolved.

I ruled that the attacks happened simultaneously, which resulted in the goblin getting a crit and knocking the wizard unconscious at the same time the wizard hit with a flame bolt and did maximum damage, killing the goblin.

Was I right?

 

[MerricB]

I think it sounded awesome, which means you were right.

Strictly speaking, the wizard wouldn't get to attack until after the goblin had finished his attack, but I prefer your ruling.

Cheers!

 

[Werebat]

I think it sounded awesome, which means you were right.

The best part was that it was a PLAYER who was arguing that the goblin should get their attack off before the wizard could cast their readied cantrip (this was the guy playing the rogue, natch). I had been prepared to have the wizard drop the gobbo and move on.

I asked, "Do you REALLY want me to roll a critical hit on the wizard and drop him out of the combat?"

And two minutes later, after the player had demonstrated that the rules clearly state that a hidden combatant in a situation like that gets their attack off first, that's exactly what I did!

 

[Paraxis]

What MerricB said.

I am pretty liberal about when/what I allow to trigger readied actions, and I see "I cast firebolt at the first goblin I can see." as playing out exactly as you did it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ran the first session of my Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign this evening. We're all new to 5E and learning as we go.

In the first combat, where two of the four goblins were firing from the brush and hiding every round as a bonus action (as goblins can do), I was rolling well and things weren't going well for the PCs. No one was able to see the ranged gobbos when they did their "shoot/hide/move" routine.

Finally the wizard got the idea to ready a ranged cantrip (fire bolt?) to hit a goblin when he saw it pop up and shoot.

According to the rules, a hidden attacker becomes visible when the attack happens, whether it hits or misses.

A readied action can precede and attack it is readied against. However, the wizard's reaction couldn't happen until he could see the goblin, which doesn't happen until the moment its attack is resolved.

I ruled that the attacks happened simultaneously, which resulted in the goblin getting a crit and knocking the wizard unconscious at the same time the wizard hit with a flame bolt and did maximum damage, killing the goblin.

Was I right?

According to the rules, the goblin would go first (reactions happen after the trigger unless they state otherwise).

Also, since a readied spell requires concentration, it also means that a) other concentration spells cannot be in effect, and b) even if the goblin does not kill the wizard, the wizard would need to make a concentration Cons save to not lose the spell that round.


Also, the part about goblins hiding might be a bit of a mistake as well. In order to hide, they really need to have total cover or heavy obscurement. If you rule that a bunch of trees give heavy obscurement, then that's ok. However, I made this mistake when playing LMoP (as it was the first 5e we ran as well). For the most part, once the goblins are seen, they can only hide if they are no longer seen. Generally, a set of woods would typically only be light obscurement, not heavy obscurement. But if you rule that it is heavy obscurement (i.e. a lot of thick bushes under the trees), then hiding is ok. Just make sure that the PCs get Perception rolls (i.e. I typically would not use passive perception in this case) to see the hiding goblins after the first set of attacks. The PCs know the goblins are there, hiding, and their approximate locations. Based on direction (and luck of the dice), some PCs might see a given hiding goblin, some might not.

But advantage from hiding is a huge deal, so as DM, you should ensure that the goblins only get that advantage when appropriate.

 

[Warbringer]

RAF

So yes!

 

[Dausuul]

Ran the first session of my Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign this evening. We're all new to 5E and learning as we go.

In the first combat, where two of the four goblins were firing from the brush and hiding every round as a bonus action (as goblins can do), I was rolling well and things weren't going well for the PCs. No one was able to see the ranged gobbos when they did their "shoot/hide/move" routine.

Finally the wizard got the idea to ready a ranged cantrip (fire bolt?) to hit a goblin when he saw it pop up and shoot.

According to the rules, a hidden attacker becomes visible when the attack happens, whether it hits or misses.

A readied action can precede and attack it is readied against. However, the wizard's reaction couldn't happen until he could see the goblin, which doesn't happen until the moment its attack is resolved.

I ruled that the attacks happened simultaneously, which resulted in the goblin getting a crit and knocking the wizard unconscious at the same time the wizard hit with a flame bolt and did maximum damage, killing the goblin.

Was I right?

The results were awesome, so yes, you were right.

More seriously: This is a gray area in the rules. You could make a case either way. If I were presented with that situation, I would probably rule that the wizard gets to launch the readied spell before the goblin can shoot. That decision is based mainly on the fact that I think it makes for a better game. When the stealthed attacker is a monster, the party will feel less put-upon; they're already at a big disadvantage having to ready actions against foes that can "blink" into and out of stealth. When the stealthed attacker is a PC, it limits the potential for abuse.

However, other DMs might rule otherwise, and your answer is just as valid as mine.

 

[Werebat]

I was thinking about it this morning and I think that RAW it depends on whether damage is rolled WHEN an attack hits or AFTER it hits. IDHTBIFOM so I'm not sure which it is.

 

[Tormyr]

I was thinking about it this morning and I think that RAW it depends on whether damage is rolled WHEN an attack hits or AFTER it hits. IDHTBIFOM so I'm not sure which it is.

I don't think it would really matter, but I would say when it hits. I have my players roll damage dice with their attack roll to speed up play.

If the player said they would fire when they saw a goblin pop out, you could even give them a perception check and let the attacks fire simultaneously and still possibly satisfy the rules lawyer.

But the way you set it up was awesome.

RAW - rules as written
RAI - rules as intended
RFA - rulings for awesome
RFL - rulings for laughs

choose what fits your table. I float between all of those. I sometimes keep shenanigans in check, especially as we encounter rules for the first time (writing scrolls into spellbooks could fail and destroy the scroll). Intention when wording isn't clear. Awesome when it works in the situation, and our table has lots of laughs.

One of my favorites was back when the party was level 3 and had a standoff with some evil clerics of Hextor and their goons. The clerics were inviting the party to enter their arena (a killbox with the bad guys on a raised platform. The party wasn't budging. The half-gnoll paladin of Heironeous walks into the middle of the arena to the statue of Hextor and pees on the statue. The half-orc cleric of Hextor is so enraged that he breaks ranks and jumps into the arena. The paladin is surprised by this and turns while still going. I had him make a ranged attack roll. Natural 20. He hits the half-orc in the eyes at long range and temporarily blinds him. The fight breaks out, but the paladin retreats, and the party fights on their terms and barely wins.

From that point on, the paladin had a new source for his holy water to "bless" things. This became a running joke in the campaign. Just last week, the party fought a CR13 cleric of Kyuss. He popped up antilife shell to keep everyone away. My dice were on fire, and he made every concentration check. Lacking a decent ranged attack, the paladin peed and hit him in the face. That was when he failed his concentration check. Go figure.

 

[Werebat]

I don't think it would really matter, but I would say when it hits.

It matters because the readied action (reaction) happens WHEN the trigger occurs. In this case the trigger is "when I see a goblin in the bushes". The goblin becomes visible "when its attack hits or misses".

So the goblin attacks, rolls to hit, and once it has hit or missed it is visible. If damage is rolled WHEN the hit occurs, it could disrupt the readied spell and/or drop the caster before the spell is released as a reaction. If it is rolled AFTER the hit, there is a space of time when the reaction can go off.

At least that's my understanding. Eventually I'll check the wording as we have a party rogue who will want to be pulling off sneak/strike stuff like this.