D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

(I will say, however, I can't stand the Foxgrove-Weathermay twins. When I read their stuff, I keep expecting them to tell me to like and subscribe.)

I agree on that

 

[Alzrius]

(I will say, however, I can't stand the Foxgrove-Weathermay twins. When I read their stuff, I keep expecting them to tell me to like and subscribe.)

I agree. I did find them somewhat interesting at first (mostly in the 2E Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium trilogy; affiliate link), but I got over that quick. The way the books kept playing coy about whether or not Gennifer was infected with lycanthropy got old real fast, and their hunt for what happened to their "Uncle Rudolph" never seemed to go anywhere (at least until we got to the end of Van Richten's Guide to the Mists).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ravenloft hit it's peak at 1997's Domains of Dread. After that, the metaplot began to tear setting apart. If they had only fixed some of the weird inconsistencies between domains and decided to expand on certain areas rather than reprinting 1/5th of the PHB, it would be the definitive Ravenloft book.

Personally I prefer the black box. But I understand why people like domains of dread (I think it is a great book, don't get me wrong, but I distinctly remember around the time it came out was when I felt the line was shifting in terms of look, feel, and tone, and just was missing some of the elements that captivated me). Actually I think my biggest annoyance when Domains of Dread came out was the map was so hard to see (it was black and white, but loaded with shaded gray, and it just came out very difficult to discern---at least for my eyes). But a lot of people prefer and like DoD. For me the black box will always be the definitive version of the setting.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree. I did find them somewhat interesting at first (mostly in the 2E Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium trilogy; affiliate link), but I got over that quick. The way the books kept trying to obscure whether or not Gennifer was infected with lycanthropy got old real fast, and their hunt for what happened to their "Uncle Rudolph" never seemed to go anywhere (at least until we got to the end of Van Richten's Guide to the Mists).

For whatever reason, the whole Weathermay twins thing never quite got the feel they pinned down with the Van Richten books. First person is really hard to do right, especially in an RPG. And I think it is easy to not edit it down enough, not find the right things to focus on. I remember starkly reacting very negatively to the weathermay twins for that reason. The Van Richten books nailed it, but the S&S books somehow got that concept wrong for me. When I read the original Van Richten books, my experience was always one of feeling like the setting was being illuminated for me. I would read a section and immediately have a "this gives me an idea for an adventure" feel. And they did a really good job characterizing Van Richten through his voice and observations

 

[Bedrockgames]

I assume you mean in the more modern aspect of the word. Fair enough. I don't really agree; I thought it felt a bit more thorough. Maybe slightly less flavorful, but more informative. But each to their own.

I mean it in the sense that it had in the 90s (if that sense has carried over to today, then yes). Gothy but not gothic. In fact I remember one of the books, can't remember which, had an image of a troupe of bards performing on stage and they looked like an indie band---to me that image encapsulated how the rest of the book felt to me.

 

[humble minion]

they don’t list a population number for the domain: they only list population for the settlements. That means we don’t really know what the rural numbers are unless an entry specifically comments

Knowing the settlement population numbers does, however, put an upper limit on the complexity of society, industry, government etc that exists in the domain. Specialised trades, metallurgy and manufacturing, printing, higher education, and so on (all of which exist in Ravenloft) require a degree of concentration in population, industrial, and worker base. A decadent city-based aristocracy like Richulemot requires servants and cooks and carriage-drivers and so on, jewelers and gamekeepers and rival fashionable modistes, and fashionable cafes to be seen at etc and these people have families and need places to swill cheap rotgut gin when they're off work etc etc and the numbers add up fast.

None of which matters if you and your group don't care about these things, of course. It's really a matter of taste. You can run a thoroughly good Ravenloft game without thinking about these things in the slightest. But my personal preference is for a campaign that feels like in takes place in a functional lived-in world, and questions like 'who is Van Richten's publisher and what happens if a vampire takes it over and tampers with his Guides to spread disinformation or give away a rival's secrets, and where do they get their paper, and do they use moveable type?' would bug me if i was trying to run or play the sort of investigative Ravenloft game that the Van Richten's Guides promote.

It's quite possible that my formative influences of Ravenloft have affected my point of view here - the earliest books i own are the Domains of Dread setting book and the Van Richten's Guides for 2e. The whole Core model was thoroughly embedded by then, though the line didn't pay all that much detailed attention to matters geopolitical (for want of a better word) until the S&S stuff started coming out. And I love the Gazetteers (which is why I'm focusing on them to start this thread!) because all the little details, of food and music and local customs and clothing - make the place feel like a real place and help a good DM establish the sort of atmosphere that is essential for RL.

 

[Remathilis]

Personally I prefer the black box. But I understand why people like domains of dread (I think it is a great book, don't get me wrong, but I distinctly remember around the time it came out was when I felt the line was shifting in terms of look, feel, and tone, and just was missing some of the elements that captivated me). Actually I think my biggest annoyance when Domains of Dread came out was the map was so hard to see (it was black and white, but loaded with shaded gray, and it just came out very difficult to discern---at least for my eyes). But a lot of people prefer and like DoD. For me the black box will always be the definitive version of the setting.

Gotta agree on that map. The most useless map in all of TSR history.

And DoD is when the setting started to shift from trapped outsiders to natives. Which of why there is so much growing pains as far as plausible world info. It lost some of the "wandering lost in a waking dream" element, but that was the price for having a functioning world with trade and stuff. The biggest problem is that it didn't go far enough and Ravenloft was torn between trying to be a functioning campaign setting and keeping to it's weekend in Hell roots and the compromises weakened both.

 

[humble minion]

Gotta agree on that map. The most useless map in all of TSR history.

I have a LOT to say about the standard of the maps in the Gazetteers!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Gotta agree on that map. The most useless map in all of TSR history.

And DoD is when the setting started to shift from trapped outsiders to natives. Which of why there is so much growing pains as far as plausible world info. It lost some of the "wandering lost in a waking dream" element, but that was the price for having a functioning world with trade and stuff. The biggest problem is that it didn't go far enough and Ravenloft was torn between trying to be a functioning campaign setting and keeping to it's weekend in Hell roots and the compromises weakened both.

It was also a shift toward bringing in more fantasy elements as well.

For my part, I found the black box great for long campaigns with a central conceit that the players were pulled there from another place (or places). For me that worked better than intruding into an ongoing campaign and pulling characters into Ravenloft for a few sessions. It enabled a full campaign in the setting, while preserving the players as outsiders.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Knowing the settlement population numbers does, however, put an upper limit on the complexity of society, industry, government etc that exists in the domain. Specialised trades, metallurgy and manufacturing, printing, higher education, and so on (all of which exist in Ravenloft) require a degree of concentration in population, industrial, and worker base. A decadent city-based aristocracy like Richulemot requires servants and cooks and carriage-drivers and so on, jewelers and gamekeepers and rival fashionable modistes, and fashionable cafes to be seen at etc and these people have families and need places to swill cheap rotgut gin when they're off work etc etc and the numbers add up fast.

But the whole point of Richmulot is it has an abandoned quality to it, where large sections of the cities are in ruins. It is a domain that reflects rat infestation. It is almost apocalyptic or post plague in feel. And these are not vibrant aristocrats (this is the extent of the description of the people in the black box):

If you plunk down a city of 100,000 people, you totally lose that feel. They don't just mention the current population size in the black box, but also its potential size. For example Pont-a-Museau has a population of 6,000 but could easily house 20,000. And these numbers aren't insane. I mean even Paris, had something like 100,000 population in 1500 (so 20,000 is certainly lower, but I think still gives you enough for there to have been a society there at one point that approximated its inspiration in some respects).

But yes like you say elsewhere, my concern isn't for this level of realism in Ravenloft in the first place. I just think that is misplaced with a setting like Ravenloft (which is all about atmosphere)