Ready action question

[thorian]

Here is the set-up: Character "A" is 20' from character "B" who is holding a spear. Could A ready an action to move once the spear has left B's hand, but before it hits him?

Here is my theory for the ready action:

For example, you might specify that you will shoot an arrow at anyone coming through a nearby doorway. Then, at any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

Also:

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell."

So, there are two examples of using readied actions in the middle of another characters action. One in the middle of another's move and one in the middle of another's spellcasting. I don't think readying to interrupt in the middle of another's full round action should be a problem. You can also ready to set a weapon against a charge or ready an action to use spellcraft and cast a spell during another's spell casting.

 

[Pielorinho]

Hmmm...I'm not sure how I'd feel about this one. Here's why.

Imagine that I'm facing Bubba the Impaler, the kingdom's best shot with a spear. I further know that he's got one Spear of Pielorinho Slaying, which he's coated with double-concentrated Wyvern venom and enchanted to receive a +5 bonus. He's got like +25 on his next attack--and my armor class is only 20.

How do I avoid his attack? I ready an action to move behind a wall as soon as the spear has left his hand. Presto: he loses his awesome attack, and has no chance to hit me. That seems like far too valuable a readied action.

What I wouldallow is a readied action that goes off as soon as he targets: as soon as he pulls back his arm to throw the spear, a character could have a readied action trigger go off. Most commonly the trigger will say, "I ready an action to do this nasty thing to the first person I see try to attack me."

HOWEVER, like all readied actions, it goes off before the trigger.

Thus, Bubba rears back his arm and gets ready to throw that deadly spear at me. I toss up a Wall of Stone in between myself and Bubba.

Then his action comes up. Since he can no longer target me, he cancels his attack and instead starts moving into a position from which he'll be able to attack me next round.

Daniel

 

[argo]

No, you cannot ready an action to dodge an attack. That is what your AC is for and you do not get to short-circuit the attack roll mechanic. You may however use your standard action to take the full defense action, which adds a +4 dodge bonus to your AC until the start of your next turn. That could easily be described as "watching the spearthrower carefully and dodging just as he throws the spear".


I would, however, be ok with Pielorinho's interpretation that allows the attacker to keep whatever action he would have used after your readied action resolves. Thus you could ready an action to move "when I see someone getting ready to attack me" which leaves the attacker the option of using his action for something else. But not ready an action to move "when I see him throw the spear" at that point it is too late and the only thing that can save you is your reflexes which is represented by your AC.

 

[Amal Shukup]

You can't Ready your action to take place after the 'Attack' Action is committed (spear left hand) but before it lands (although that IS how Readying to Counterspell is usually interpreted as working)

That's what your AC is for - how good are you at avoiding an attack? Good enough? He misses. Not? Ouch! (I could see Feats being designed to allow certain kinds of 'active defense' - like Deflect Arrows, although I liked it better when it was an opposed roll). Normally, however, avoiding an attack is a function of AC.


You CAN 'Ready' any Standard Action, though. So, on your turn, you could move (Move Action) next to a convenient wall and declare a Readied Action ("When he attacks me with his Spear, I move behind this here wall"). Swoosh, away you go.

BUT (according to the Ready Action rules), he hasn't used up his actions yet, so there's nothing preventing him from simply moving to a better position and attacking from there (negating your efforts), or targeting someone else this round... In other words, there's no difference - effectively - between Readying this action, or just fleeing behind the wall on your turn.

On the other hand, if you're anticipating that your opponent is going to move THEN throw, (or is likely to use his Move Action to draw the spear, say), Readying a move behind a wall could be useful - he still has his Attack action, but his Move is no longer available to him.

Another option is the 'Total Defense' action, which gives you a +4 (or more) Dodge Bonus to your AC.

In any event, Readying actions like this is risky, because if the attacker decides to do something else, you've wasted your turn...

A'Mal

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can't Ready your action to take place after the 'Attack' Action is committed (spear left hand) but before it lands (although that IS how Readying to Counterspell is usually interpreted as working)

Not to mention Readying an attack to disrupt a spellcaster.

If he starts to cast Magic Missile, and you hit him, and he fails his Concentration check, he can't say "Well, the AoO happens before my action, so instead of casting a spell, I'll shoot you with my crossbow".

If you Ready an action 'If he attacks me with his spear, I move', then the first thing that happens is he takes the Attack action. If he doesn't, your readied action never triggers.

Then you move, before he actually makes his attack.

Now the triggering action resolves. If he still has a line to you, he can still throw his spear. If you have Total Cover, there's not much point in throwing... but he's used his Standard action. He still has a Move action in hand.

-Hyp.

 

[argo]

@Hyp, you do make a compelling argument. There are cases in the core rules where you can use a readied action to counter an opponent's action and cost him his turn. However in this particular case (which is not explicitly dealt with in the RAW) I dont' feel that it passes the "smell test" for three reasons.

First, and most importantly, it circumvents a very imortant core mechanic: the attack roll. Yes you can counter a spell or interupt a spell being cast. But there is no other mechanic besides the ready action for doing that (or perhaps I should say that the ready action is the mechanic for doing that). In this case another mechanic already exists, the attack roll, and this case would negate it completly.

Secondly, in all those cases where you can use a ready action to negate another's action the opponent has some recourse. To counter a spell you have to make a spellcraft check and spend a spell slot of your own. To disrupt a spell you have to succede at an attack roll and your opponent has to fail a concentration check. Now, some of those tasks may be easy but they still leave your opponent with a chance of success. In this case however your opponent has no recourse at all. You ready an action and when he tries to attack you the attack simply fails and he looses his action, end of story. Again, that violates a core design principle that risky, dangerous or unusual tasks should be given a chance of success/failure. On a related note, in all those example cases the ready guy does something proactive to disrupt/upset the opponents action. In this case all he is doing is trying to get out of the way of the incomming attack which the system already assumes he is doing as a part of his AC.

Thirdly, the case is built on cumbersome logic and opens a slipery slope (yes yes I know, gameplay and logic have about as much to do with each other as steelhead trout and dog farts, hear me out). So the logic of this is supposed to be that when you see him throw you dive for cover right? But what if spearchucker is just so awsome and his throw so fast that he hits you in mid-dive anyway? Doesn't that make just as much sense within the confines of the game world? And even if the visual image of a person diving for cover against a ranged attack makes sense what about other logical extensions of the same action? "I use the ready action so that when swordboy takes a swing at me I block it with my sheild". Strictly speaking isn't that the same game mechanic as using the ready action to dodge a throw from spearchucker?


Now, I freely admit that everything I just said is just opinion, not RAW. But I would also contest that this case is one of those corner cases where the granularity of the d20 combat system isnt fine enough to model what we are talking about and that it is the responsibility of the DM to interpret the intent of the rules as well as the letter. There is no rule that exactly models the situation presented, only several different rules that resemble it to varying degrees. For my money I am going to say that dodging a spear is handled abstractly by AC and if a player suggested something like this to me I would point him in the direction of the Total Defense action. Breaking the attack roll mechanic seems like a more severe violation to me than ignoring the similarities of this case to disrupting spellcasting or the like.

YMMV

 

[Amal Shukup]

Now the triggering action resolves. If he still has a line to you, he can still throw his spear. If you have Total Cover, there's not much point in throwing... but he's used his Standard action. He still has a Move action in hand.
-Hyp.

Okay, I buy this. Doesn't break the basic paradigm... But it raises some questions...

He can still throw his spear... Must he throw it (if at all) at the now totally covered individual or could he shift his attack to target another target? or is the action considered to already be in progress? The text suggests that the triggering action takes place after, rather than during - although the Disrupting and Counterspelling bits suggest the opposite...

He CAN still throw his spear? Or he MUST throw his spear? Or could he just blow that 'Attack', shift to a Full Attack Action, and use his next iterative attack to hurl it at another target? I'm fully confident that he can iteratively target someone else, I'm shaky as to whether he keeps his spear given the arguments posited. Only really an issue with hurled weapons - melee weapons and ammo are always at hand...

What about Truestrike? If I just blow off the Attack (opt out - don't actually throw it) am I making an actual attack roll? Or would my next iterative Attack count as my 'next single attack roll...made before the end of the next round' for the purposes of the Spell

Hmmn.

Could an Attacker use Bluff (having blown a Standard Action the previous round setting this up) to convince one defender that he was the target then attack his real target instead - not only provoking and wasting the Readied Action, but getting some nice flatfooted bonusses vs the real target? (Faking out two people - two opposed rolls, only getting actual bonusses vs one)

Could a similar bluff force a Caster to waste a Counterspell on a faked casting? The bluffing Caster using his Standard Action to Bluff rather than actually casting a Spell. Hmmnnn... That'd be a good way to drain off enemy spells (risky though: a Counterspelling Fireball with no actual Fireball to counter might just express itself as a Fireball. Oops. Trick would be to fake really OBSCURE spells and draw some untargeted Dispel Magics)

Or is someone going to suggest that the Ready Action provides some mechanical or post-facto omniscience? "Oh, a spell wasn't actually disrupted? Oh, then my readied Action never actually happened, because the Triggering Action didn't REALLY happen, therefore I didn't REALLY waste my Spell..."

A'Mal

 

[Saeviomagy]

The ready action can, IMHO do the following things.

Allow you to attack an opponent and then 5' step backwards out of his reach when he attacks you, causing the attack to fail.

Allow you to charge a spellcaster and attack him halfway through a spell, forcing a concentration check, or counterspell his spell either of which may or may not cause a spell slot to be lost uselessly.

Allow you to step out of the way of a charge. Halfway through the charge being enacted no less - the guy says "I charge", starts moving, and then the target moves. That's it, charge ruined.

Allow you to grapple someone halfway through a charge (or any other declared movement).

Allow you to leap to cover when attacked with a ranged weapon. Given the above situations, I've no problem with the attack being wasted to a readied action.

Readied actions CAN be powerful IF the enemy does what you expect. If he does something different, they're a wasted action. That's the gamble you make, and the price you pay for their power. If, for instance, the spear thrower charges you, or casts a spell, or moves to cover etc. you're left standing in the open, one action down.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But it raises some questions...

Yup

Or could he just blow that 'Attack', shift to a Full Attack Action, and use his next iterative attack to hurl it at another target?

Careful - you can elect after the first attack of a Full Attack action to 'trade in' your remaining attacks for a Move action, but you can't elect after an Attack action to trade in your Move action for a bunch of attacks

In practice, there's usually little difference... but if your Full Attack action contains effects (Flurry, Rapid Shot, TWF) that provide penalties to all attacks, you need to make sure you make those decisions before the first attack roll.

What about Truestrike? If I just blow off the Attack (opt out - don't actually throw it) am I making an actual attack roll?

I'd rule no. The spell wouldn't be discharged, nor would Sanctuary or Invisibility be broken, etc. But... it's far from unambiguous

Could an Attacker use Bluff (having blown a Standard Action the previous round setting this up) to convince one defender that he was the target then attack his real target instead - not only provoking and wasting the Readied Action, but getting some nice flatfooted bonusses vs the real target? (Faking out two people - two opposed rolls, only getting actual bonusses vs one)

That starts to sound like a feat... something similar to Quicker than the Eye, for example.

Or is someone going to suggest that the Ready Action provides some mechanical or post-facto omniscience?

I've seen that come up before with both Ready and Contingency

It's up to the DM, I guess.

Can a Readied attack ('When he casts a spell') be triggered by a silent, still, eschewed spell, if the Readier has no ranks in Spellcraft?

Can the same Readied attack be triggered by someone waving their arms and chanting gibberish?

The ready action can, IMHO do the following things.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of that.

Allow you to step out of the way of a charge. Halfway through the charge being enacted no less - the guy says "I charge", starts moving, and then the target moves. That's it, charge ruined.

Be careful with that one, though. If you step out of the way when he's only moved 5 feet, the game crashes to desktop. If your save file is corrupted, you have to start over...

It's always safest to let him move at least ten feet before you move.

-Hyp.

 

[Amal Shukup]

Yeeaugh -> My brain hurts now...

We've reached a frontier of the rules where even the flying blue dude is not providing illumination and clarity. Even when I don't AGREE with him, there's usually CLARITY.

A bastion of defensible logic with which to withstand the gibbering hordes that wash over me every game day...

Whimper

...crashes to desktop...

Well, I'm flashin' the Blue Screen o' Pain. Somebody give me a three-finger salute.

A'Mal

PS - Don't tell my players I called them 'the gibbering hordes'... They'll gibber at me...