Real difference between hit-points and vitality-points

[Turanil]

I have yet to buy Unearthed Arcana (can't buy everything!), but until then, I would like to know more about this Wound-Points / Vitality-Points alternate system. What's the real difference with the normal Hit-Points system?

So to summarize what I understand: in the normal system you have your pool of hit-points, plus you can survive until -10 after reaching 0. Now, with that new system, you have Wound-Points equal to your constitution, and Vitality-Points equal to normal hit-points. So what happens when you fall to 0 Vitality-points? What's the difference between hit-points and vitality-points (before you reach 0)? Is there something like up to -10 when you reach 0 Wound-points?

Or is it just a cosmetic changing of names (with vitality-points being exactly the same thing as hit-points) ??

 

[Thanee]

If it's the same as in Star Wars d20, then Vitality is equal to your hit points and you have Wound points in addition (equal to your Constitution score).

When your Vitality reaches 0 you deduct damage from Wounds.
When your Wounds reaches 0 you are disabled as normal and at -10 you are dead.

Also, critical hits are deducted directly from Wound points (but damage is not multiplied)!
Obviously the threat range cannot be used in the same way as normal then, because the multiplier has no effect anymore.

Ok, that's how it works in SW at least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[dcollins]

What's the real difference with the normal Hit-Points system?

The primary difference is that Hit Points are an abstracted combination of health, luck, dodging ability, etc.

Since some people are disatisfied with that ("did I get cut by the sword or not?"), the VP/WP system divides it up. Vitality represents dodging ability. Wounds represents actual physical injuries.

 

[Turanil]

Aaah... yes! I had forgotten about Star-Wars. So, if it works as in SW I do now know how it works. By the way, Traveller 20 has a similar system but which is even more complex. Well, I think I will forget about Vitality points, or make some house-rule... But this would belong to another forum.

In any case, thanks for your answers!

 

[Silveras]

Actually, the version in UA is a little different.

• Any Wound damage imposes the fatigued state on the character.
• Wound points do not go below 0.
• At 0 Wound points, a charcter is disabled, and makes a Fort save vs DC 15 to avoid dying
• Each round of dying the character must make a Fort save vs DC 10+ 1/round after the first. Failure means death. Success by 1-4 over the target DC means the character must save again next round. Success by 5-9 means the character stabilizes. Success at 10 or more means the chacter improves to being conscious and disabled.

I have not tried it yet, but my expectation is that death would be infrequent, incapacitation common, and most characters will spend a lot of time fatigued.

 

[Geoff Watson]

There really isn't much difference.
The V/W rules merely give a chance for any critical to kill outright regardless of current 'hit points'.
So, they suck, IMHO. (Increased randomness is bad for PCs).

Geoff.

 

[Galethorn]

Bad, in that they have to be more careful. If you're playing a by-the-book campaign with lots of random encounters, and maybe more than the usual ammount of combat, then I think that the VP/WP system would most certainly suck, but it would probably be a good thing in a more...uhhh...down-to-earth kind of a campaign. Like one where a sleeping fighter doesn't survive being stabbed in the head with a dagger repeatedly, simply because he's killed enough kobolds in his day to make it to level 5. Or one where real tactics work, like sneaking up from behind somebody and slitting their throat without you yourself having rogue levels.

But, to be fair, those things still wouldn't happen with the VP/WP as written, but rather with one a little more like Star Wars, and with a much more lenient take on what counts as a Coup De Grace...and a lower massive damage threshold...and more dangerously scaling save DCs based on the damage done.

So, for a high-level-fighter-falling-out-of-a-flying-castle-only-to-get-up-and-perform-a-lewd-gesture-followed-by-a-jig (HLFFOOAFCOTGUAPALGFBAG) Campaign where high-level human-sized and smaller characters kill dragons with ease, the VP/WP system would be a very bad thing...because it would no longer allow things like that to happen...

 

[Geoff Watson]

Bad, in that they have to be more careful. If you're playing a by-the-book campaign with lots of random encounters, and maybe more than the usual ammount of combat, then I think that the VP/WP system would most certainly suck, but it would probably be a good thing in a more...uhhh...down-to-earth kind of a campaign. Like one where a sleeping fighter doesn't survive being stabbed in the head with a dagger repeatedly, simply because he's killed enough kobolds in his day to make it to level 5. Or one where real tactics work, like sneaking up from behind somebody and slitting their throat without you yourself having rogue levels.

But, to be fair, those things still wouldn't happen with the VP/WP as written, but rather with one a little more like Star Wars, and with a much more lenient take on what counts as a Coup De Grace...and a lower massive damage threshold...and more dangerously scaling save DCs based on the damage done.

So, for a high-level-fighter-falling-out-of-a-flying-castle-only-to-get-up-and-perform-a-lewd-gesture-followed-by-a-jig (HLFFOOAFCOTGUAPALGFBAG) Campaign where high-level human-sized and smaller characters kill dragons with ease, the VP/WP system would be a very bad thing...because it would no longer allow things like that to happen...

VP/WP isn't more realistic, just more random. Taking care doesn't matter (except for avoiding fights completely), as it's just luck as to whether a hit does VP or WP.
Falling damage hits VP, so the fighter is more likely to survive, since the 'massive damage' rule isn't used with VP/WP.
Why can't they beat dragons? The dragon would have a few more 'hp' but isn't invulnerable.
The 'slitting throats' idea is stupid, as the players would do it to their enemies, but cry 'unfair' if the DM did it to them.

Geoff.

 

[Galethorn]

I never said realistic.

In a normal campaign, most level 10 barbarians wouldn't think much of a horde of 20 goblins. They'd wade in and kill all of them with great-cleave, ignoring their damage almost completely. In one with wound points, there's some chance that the barbarian might get stabbed in the giblets by a lucky goblin, all the more likely if there's 20 of them. So, the barbarian would have to use strategy and tactics. High chance of getting critted on with lots of foes? Divide them up somehow. I can't see how that's avoiding a fight.

As for falling, any smart DM wanting realism (which is really a dangerous word to bring into a discussion on this board, in my experience) would have falling do wound damage.

And the throat-slitting, you have to remember this simple fact; in the 'default' VP/WP system, minor NPCs (like the kind of guy you'd sneak up on and slit the throat of) don't have any vitality, just wound points. So, it would be a simple grapple against a flat-footed opponent followed by an attack with a light weapon. If one of the PCs was out of vitality and got grappled by a guy with a dagger, they probably wouldn't cry 'unfair'...unless they were the kind of guy who says 'unfair' when the DM rolls a natural 20 on an enemy's save.


In the end, it is more random, but so is real life.

So, if you don't see my point now, I'll just agree with you by virtue of your higher post-count. (and no, that wasn't sarcasm)

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

The only real problem I can see with VP/WP:

It was designed for star wars. Jedi aside, almost everyone uses ranged weapons. A rifle does 3D8 damage. Crit on a 20. You get critted with that and it's going to hurt a lot. Good chance it will put a human into the 'dying stat'. However, even a max damage hit won't kill a tough character (Con 15+). People who use melee have to close on the gunner, which can be difficult.

Compare this to DnD - melee weapons are the norm and generally do a lot more damage, with a higher crit range... Keen Falchion + Power attack = insta kill. Sneak attack is a dead nasty as well. Many high Str/larger monsters will wipe you out with a crit.

Overall, I think it makes the game way too lethal for my tastes. Particularly at higher levels. If that's what you want, then it's great!

My 2 cents: The system needs a thorough redesign to cope with the changes caused by VP/WP. I think the easiest 'cop out' is to go with spycrafts idea and allow players to 'buy off' criticals with some sort of action dice.