Real quick question -

[glass]

Sure, but how can you be proficient in something you´ve just improvised?

Ever heard a guitar solo?


glass.

 

[wedgeski]

Sydney Bristow from Alias has made fighting with improvised weapons an art-form - that's the sort of thing I'm picturing in this discussion.

 

[wedgeski]

For the latter, of course you can become proficient in something bizarre, if you practice enough. If I spent the next 2 years practicing with a table leg, I very well could be quite adept with it.

The problem is that there a huge variety of table legs out there. The next one you pick up might well be thicker, heavier, flimsier, more full of splinters, longer, shorter, or have more nails in it than the last, requiring a new set of skills to use. A longsword, however, does not vary enough to have any impact on your generic swordsman's expertise.

Which is not to say that the feat being discussed wouldn't be cool.

 

[Someone]

Hmm. Are you saying you can't see a rationale for an Improved Weapon Proficiency feat? Or are you saying you can't see a rationale for Weapon Proficiency in a table leg?

Neither: I´m saying that a sentence that includes the words "improvised" and "proficiency" is, by my own words, "a bit oxymoronical", in the sense that certain connotations of both words implied contary meanings. I would have said the same if the OP asked for the feat Compassionate Torture, even when that feat could, say, lessen the damage deal to the subject you´re torturing.

I see perfectly reasonable a feat that deals with the penalty for fighting with improvised weapons; it´d be cool and probably balanced, since feats that elimiate penalties are rarely overpowered. When I said that "that feat doesn´t exist", it was exactly that, in a literal sense: that nowhere, (as far as I know, of course) has that feat being published, the same way that, probably, nobody could take Practiced Spellcaster before Complete Arcane came out.

 

[AuraSeer]

How's it an oxymoron? A chair leg is improvised, doesn't mean I can't learn to use it, right?

If you gained EWP: Chair Leg, then you could wield a chair leg without the penalty. But you'd still suffer the -4 when wielding a broken bottle, a stepladder, or a board with a nail in it.

One proficiency does not cover all the possible improvised weapons that you might pick up.

 

[cmanos]

OK how about this....

Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item but you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +12
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item at no penalty.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Notice that the penalty for being non-proficient with a weapon is different from the penalty for using an improvised weapon. A really strict DM could apply both penalties and he should for really strange weapons that have no similarities with normal weapons (e.g. a curtain can be used as a weapon, but it would be difficult and unweildy; a table can be used for a weapon, but large tables work better as tower shields not rams or missiles). Being proficient in a weapon has nothing to do with its quality as a weapon. A beer bottle or a chair leg is not built to be used as a bludgeoning weapon and therefore gains a -4 improvised weapon penalty on its use. A club or mace is built for such use and doesn't gain such a penalty, but can still give its weilder a -4 non-proficiency penalty if he doesn't have proficiency in club, mace, or simple weapons. Most DMs would consider common objects to confer their proficiency just by effect of their common-ness and disinclude a -4 non-proficiency penalty. A chair leg is enough like a club or mace that proficiency in either could count for the chair leg. A bottle also resembles a club (until it breaks, them it is more like a dagger).

That said, I have no problem with a feat chain that would allow a character or NPC to become proficient with improvised weapons. Just remember that the penalty reduction you are calling for could actually be considered -8 not -4.

Ciao
Dave

 

[RobotRobotI]

OK how about this....

Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item but you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +12
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item at no penalty.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I don't think it'd ever be beneficial to take those feats. It might be fitting to a character concept, but that's two feats that are only ever going to be taken by Fighters, with mid-high level requirements. At level 6, you've probably got a magic weapon, and by level 12, there's not really any reason you're going to want to fight with a bottle instead of your Crazysword +3, for the most part.

Hm.

 

[calypso15]

OK how about this....

Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item but you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Improvised Weapon [General]
You understand how to use everything as a weapon in some way, but take a slight penalty for not being fully proficient in the item.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +12
Benefit: You make attack rolls with any item at no penalty.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I'd say it shouldn't be two feats. Something like:

Improvisation
Prerequisite: BAB +4
Benefit: You are considered proficient with improvised weapons and do not take a -4 penalty while fighting with improvised weapons.
...etc.

Calypso

 

[The Lost Muse]

What about this?

Improvised Weapon
Prerequisite: BAB +2, Improved Unarmed Strike, and one of: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Benefit: You are considered proficient with improvised weapons and avoid the penalties associated with attacking with improvised weapons.

Improved Improvised Weapon
Prerequisite: Improvised Weapon, BAB +5
Benefit: Your skill with improvised weapons has increased to the point where you are able to deal damage more effectively. You deal two extra points of damage.

Thrown Improvised Weapon
Prerequisite: Improvised Weapon, BAB +3
Benefit: Your range increment with improvised weapons increases by ten feet.
Special: This feat may be taken up to 3 times.

Improvised Strike
Prerequisite: Improvised Weapon, Ki Strike ability, BAB +3
Benefit: You do the same damage with improvised weapons as you do with your unarmed strikes. Your improvised weapons also are enhanced bu your Ki Strikes.