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Real World Alchemist Class - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPG's

For the Alkahest (Universal Solvent) I might use it like an alchemical version of a sphere of anihilation - afterall it dissolves EVERYTHING.
The puzzle is still how to contain it.


The Philosphers Stone I've always envisaged as the ultimate catalyst and thus alchemist short cut- it can let you transform any substance into any other substance desired (Lead into gold is the least spectacular of its properties, how about mud into diamonds or straw into nitric acid).
 

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For the Alkahest (Universal Solvent) I might use it like an alchemical version of a sphere of anihilation - afterall it dissolves EVERYTHING.
The puzzle is still how to contain it.

Well, it wasn't suppose to dissolve organic material (in some contexts at least). You could keep it in a wineskin then.

The Philosphers Stone I've always envisaged as the ultimate catalyst and thus alchemist short cut- it can let you transform any substance into any other substance desired (Lead into gold is the least spectacular of its properties, how about mud into diamonds or straw into nitric acid).

Thats going to be a royal pain in the ass ... Got to put some sort of limitation on it
 

Perhaps the Philosopher's Stone power comes at a great price- its almost Artifact-like, when you think of it.

Possibilities include:
  1. XP cost
  2. Permanent mental stat drain for certain uses
  3. An inexorable slide towards insanity.
 

Thats going to be a royal pain in the ass ... Got to put some sort of limitation on it
In game terms, maybe discovering Philosphers' Stone happens fairly early in the Alchemist class's advancement (eg, level 12 or whatever). Then part of the class advancement is learning to use it, perhaps by choosing from a list of options (similar to how a Rogue selects special abilities, or a specialist wizard chooses spells); or else by feat selection (as a Ranger focuses on either archery or twf).

This would also allow a little differentiation between Alchemists. One might go on to specialize on Philosophers' Stone and its applications, while another may opt to focus on perfecting The Golem, and yet another may take a more generalist approach and becoma a "jack of all trades, master of none."
 

I have a lot I want to add to this thread, but I have very little time right now, I'd like to interject quickly.

I kind of agree with the Orc here on one level, I think you don't want to restrict your Alchemist class too much. I believe it would be artificial to limit them to just one cultural tradition, since knowledge was passing from region to region especially in this field. Gunpowder was the result of Chinese Alchemy (a failed potion of eternal life, ironically) which made it to Europe within a couple of generations.

In a Medieval context, I'm aware of at least five Alchemical traditions: the Italian traditoin in pursuit of the universal solvent and the philosophers stone (more about these a bit later when I have some time) and oriented toward making money; the Hindu version which was focused on metalurgy and expressed by the creation of Wootz steel (so called 'Damascus' steel) as well as other miracles of metalurgy such as spring-steel longbows and the Iron Pillar of Delhi; Chinese Alchemy which dealt with the pursuit of eternal life (and left us with one of the highest rates of longevity in the world); Arab / Persian Alchemy which was obsessed with Takwin; and arguably a Hebrew Alchemy which f similarly focused on the Homonculus and also heavily on the Kaballah and numerology.

All of these traditions cross fertalized each other. They were all using Astrology, numerology, cyphers, mnemonics. They were sharing or stealing information from each other at a phenomenal rate. European Medieval 'scientists' were using Hebrew and Kabablistic numerology, translating 9th Century Arab and Persian Alchemists and writing in their name, playing with Tarot cards and writing out Chinese influenced Horoscopes.

Then you also have to consider the Romans, the Greeks, and the Egyptian Hermetic traditions, all of which heavily influenced the Europeans and the Arabs if not the Chinese or the Indians (I don't know if they did or not yet) But you have to read a bit about Archemedes and Heron of Alexandria, as wel as Plato and Aristotle to understand Roger Bacon or Al Khindi or Al Jabir.

Anyway just some food for thought for historical context, I think it's much richer and more wide open than people realize. I'll have more context and specific details to add tonight hopefully.

G.
 

The whole Earth, Air, Water and Fire concept was lifted from Hermetic Magic IIRC. Alchemists sought to combine all those things together to achieve their desired results - taking all solids to be "Earth", all gasses "Air", all liquids "Water" - and using heat "Fire". Came up with some interesting results purely by accident - Phosphorus, for example.

A respectable number of elements in the periodic table were known back then - as evidenced by the Latin origins for their modern symbols (they had mystical symbols back in the day) - Au, Sn, Sb, Pb, St, Cu, K, and so forth.

I've got a very basic science book in my collection that shows a small number of the symbols, most of which cannot be easily rendered in ASCII characters. Many of those symbols cross over to Astronomy/Astrology. We're familiar with the "Venus" and "Mars" symbols - the "Female" and "Male" symbols comprising of a circle with a cross beneath it for women (resembling a mirror with a decorative handle) and the circle with the "arrow" rising up from it (shield and spear) - they were also associated at times with chemical substances thought to be "ruled" by those Heavenly Bodies.

It's hard to see where Astrology stops and Alchemy starts, looking at those symbols.
 

Perhaps the Philosopher's Stone power comes at a great price- its almost Artifact-like, when you think of it.

Possibilities include:
  1. XP cost
  2. Permanent mental stat drain for certain uses
  3. An inexorable slide towards insanity.

Well, yeah XP. And probably a load of money due to research. The 1st time at least, becuase all the research would take money the first time.

In game terms, maybe discovering Philosphers' Stone happens fairly early in the Alchemist class's advancement (eg, level 12 or whatever). Then part of the class advancement is learning to use it, perhaps by choosing from a list of options (similar to how a Rogue selects special abilities, or a specialist wizard chooses spells); or else by feat selection (as a Ranger focuses on either archery or twf).

This would also allow a little differentiation between Alchemists. One might go on to specialize on Philosophers' Stone and its applications, while another may opt to focus on perfecting The Golem, and yet another may take a more generalist approach and becoma a "jack of all trades, master of none."

I like the branching idea.

I have a lot I want to add to this thread, but I have very little time right now, I'd like to interject quickly.

I kind of agree with the Orc here on one level, I think you don't want to restrict your Alchemist class too much. I believe it would be artificial to limit them to just one cultural tradition, since knowledge was passing from region to region especially in this field. Gunpowder was the result of Chinese Alchemy (a failed potion of eternal life, ironically) which made it to Europe within a couple of generations.

In a Medieval context, I'm aware of at least five Alchemical traditions: the Italian traditoin in pursuit of the universal solvent and the philosophers stone (more about these a bit later when I have some time) and oriented toward making money; the Hindu version which was focused on metalurgy and expressed by the creation of Wootz steel (so called 'Damascus' steel) as well as other miracles of metalurgy such as spring-steel longbows and the Iron Pillar of Delhi; Chinese Alchemy which dealt with the pursuit of eternal life (and left us with one of the highest rates of longevity in the world); Arab / Persian Alchemy which was obsessed with Takwin; and arguably a Hebrew Alchemy which f similarly focused on the Homonculus and also heavily on the Kaballah and numerology.

All of these traditions cross fertalized each other. They were all using Astrology, numerology, cyphers, mnemonics. They were sharing or stealing information from each other at a phenomenal rate. European Medieval 'scientists' were using Hebrew and Kabablistic numerology, translating 9th Century Arab and Persian Alchemists and writing in their name, playing with Tarot cards and writing out Chinese influenced Horoscopes.

Then you also have to consider the Romans, the Greeks, and the Egyptian Hermetic traditions, all of which heavily influenced the Europeans and the Arabs if not the Chinese or the Indians (I don't know if they did or not yet) But you have to read a bit about Archemedes and Heron of Alexandria, as wel as Plato and Aristotle to understand Roger Bacon or Al Khindi or Al Jabir.

Anyway just some food for thought for historical context, I think it's much richer and more wide open than people realize. I'll have more context and specific details to add tonight hopefully.

G.

... WOW. You are so helpful G. I think branching on what would be more traditional alchemy by region is a cool idea. When should branching start? Level 1, 6, 12? Something else entirely?

The whole Earth, Air, Water and Fire concept was lifted from Hermetic Magic IIRC. Alchemists sought to combine all those things together to achieve their desired results - taking all solids to be "Earth", all gasses "Air", all liquids "Water" - and using heat "Fire". Came up with some interesting results purely by accident - Phosphorus, for example.

A respectable number of elements in the periodic table were known back then - as evidenced by the Latin origins for their modern symbols (they had mystical symbols back in the day) - Au, Sn, Sb, Pb, St, Cu, K, and so forth.

I've got a very basic science book in my collection that shows a small number of the symbols, most of which cannot be easily rendered in ASCII characters. Many of those symbols cross over to Astronomy/Astrology. We're familiar with the "Venus" and "Mars" symbols - the "Female" and "Male" symbols comprising of a circle with a cross beneath it for women (resembling a mirror with a decorative handle) and the circle with the "arrow" rising up from it (shield and spear) - they were also associated at times with chemical substances thought to be "ruled" by those Heavenly Bodies.

It's hard to see where Astrology stops and Alchemy starts, looking at those symbols.

Yep. I agree with this post, and knew some of this stuff. Not sure how to incorporate it yet. Thanks.

So, getting into the mechanics of this, should they be limited to a number of Alchemical creations a day, like a wizard and their spells? Of course, they wouldn't have to prepare ahead of time ... Then theirs regents that they'd use, should they be limited to what they make buy what they buy? Its not really fair to have a 1st Level Alchemist be throwing XP away to make some acidic substance.
 

When should branching start? Level 1, 6, 12? Something else entirely?
Since you're playing E6, I'd suggest starting the branching at level 6. Create the full 20-level class with all the options for the different traditions of alchemy as you see fit.

Then go back and reduce each of those traditions down to a single E6 "capstone feat" (or three-foot feat "feat-chains") that the epic alchemists in the low-power campaign can take.

That way you've incorporated the concept into both styles of play.
 

The whole Earth, Air, Water and Fire concept was lifted from Hermetic Magic IIRC. Alchemists sought to combine all those things together to achieve their desired results - taking all solids to be "Earth", all gasses "Air", all liquids "Water" - and using heat "Fire". Came up with some interesting results purely by accident - Phosphorus, for example.

Speaking of these type of symbols, this very interesting Renaissance alchemist / physician

Paracelsus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

had a very interesting theory about something he called the "Alphabet of the Magi" which screams plot hook as does the very life of this very colorful character.

Alphabet of the Magi

Interestingly, he is a good example of the "rational" scientist of his age. He was considered an almost miraculously successful surgeon and physician who rejected magic in a famous treatise called Archidoxes of Magic, was credited for naming if not discovering zinc, (a very important metal for the creation of Brass), invented laudanum one of the first anesthetics, and is considered a father of the modern sciences of botany and toxicology.

But on the other hand he also wrote magic talismans, used astrology in his science and his healing, and engraved angelic names as runes to effect healing. Some people also link him to the original Rosicrucians.

The life of this charming and eccentric character kind of highlights something I'd like to point out about alchemy itself.

Their methods often seemed magical or irrational, but I think it's a mistake to simplify it to that level, because their results (both intended and achieved) were frequently very practical. I think it's far less interesting to look at the symbolism of the Philsophers stone and make that into a magical item, than to plunge a bit deeper into the reality of these people and their methods.

This issue of the universal solvent for example, had very practical real life ramifications. The Arab alchemist Al-Kindi invented Aqua Fortis for a very specific reason, the reason was to seperate gold from the baser metals such as silver, lead and copper. Until these acids had been discovered, gold found in nature was always a mixture of silver, copper, lead and other metals, which is why very old gold artifiacts had different colors, some reddish, some more silvery. Simply melting the gold would not separate out the metals.

Aqua regia, a combination of acids which dissolved gold, allowed the refining of gold to it's highest purity (99%)

Both Aqua Fortis and Aqua Regia are credited to an anonymous 13th Century European Alchemist called "Pseudo Geber" from whose name we have the term "Gibberish".

Another very interesting character:

Pseudo-Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pseudo Geber had named himself after the 9th Century Arab or Persian alchemist Al Jabir whose works had been translated in Italy possibly as early as the 12th Century, as well as those of Al Khindi, Omar Kayham and other very interesting and knowlegable Alchemists of the so called Muslim Golden Age.

Pseudo Geber was essentially introducing the work of these men to European physicians, alchemists, clerics and magicians (the line between these professions being often blurred) and synthesising them into new ideas, all for very pragmatic purposes.

I'll post again a bit later on some of the specific skills I think you could borrow from these men for an RPG.

G.
 

This is a fascinating subject, and of particular relevance to me, as I am playing an alchemist (the Pathfinder version) in our game. Keep up the good work. I look forward to updates.
 

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