Realism! Versamilitude! Other Words!

[TheSeer]

On the other hand one of the things I am finding distasteful is the pro 4E people coping an attidue that if you don't like the changes just shut and go away or implying that the reason someone may not want to switch is because they are stuck in their ways or to cheap to buy new books. That is as insulting as the anti 4E crowd who are saying that people who are happy about 4E are nothing more than lemmings with incapebale of forming their own opinion.

First off, this isn't directed right at you, but is more a general comment.

I'm not in the camp that says if you don't like it pick up your toys and go home. Healthy discussion is a great thing. If you have an open mind and are waiting to see more to make up your mind, that's great, and expressing your like or dislike is just as valid as someone who wholeheartedly embraces 4E.

But I *AM* continually amazed and upset at the people who state time and again that 4E is not for them for X reason, or that due to Y they will never play 4E. And yet, MONTHS later they are in the 4E forums continually complaining about the latest thing they don't like and how it is destroying the game. Buh Wha?

I get that 4E is not for these people for whatever reason, but why do they feel the need to *constantly* complain about something they have said they have no interest in. A reasonable person who had no interest in a thing would not keep going back to that thing.

When I've seen people saying "If you don't like it go away" to me it has been expressing the feeling of "Fine, you don't like it. Why are you harshing my mellow on 4E cause you don't like it?"

Not liking it, that's your right. Go for it. But please, please, PLEASE stop posting 5 messages a week railing against the realism/class changes/healing changes/whatever that will keep you from 4E. We get it already.

Again, this isn't directed at a specific person, it's just my interpretation of what is going on.

 

[Elf Witch]

Which is what flavour?

For me in my fantasy role playing I like a more gritty feel to the game. I like how fragile first level characters are. I like that magic users can run out of spells. I like DR and SR monsters.

I don't like the idea of tieflings being in the core rules a tiefling character should be rare and becuase of their hertiage a little more powerful than other races and have some kind of ECL.

So far what I have read makes be believe that 4E will not be to my taste or that of my group without some major houseruling going on. I intend to pick up the core books and read them. I may even run a one shot game to get the feel for the new edition. But I know I won't be switching any time soon.

Some of that is because of outside reasons like I am a new DM after eight years I just in the last year felt that I finally understood the rules enough to DM. I am not ready to tackle a new set of rules.

I am not saying that the designers are wrong or that the people who are looking forward to the changes are wrong. There is no right or wrong here just a matter of taste.


It is like with 4E of Shadowrun it was not the rule changes that really turned me off there were some but they changed so much of the world and how magic works that I no longer felt as if I was playing in a Shadowrun world and yes I could house rule things back and at first we tried to do that in the end though most of the group felt why bother either play 4e or go back and play 3E. My shadowrun group split into two groups those who liked 4 and those who prefered 3.

I DM a 3.5 game but I also play in a 2E Forgotten Realms game. The DM of that game felt about 3.0 as some people do about 4E. He feels that 3.0/3.5 did not give him what he wanted in his fantasy role playing. He jokes that the only good thing about the switch is that noone is changing and adding to the rule set he plays with and he was able to pick up a lot of books he had wanted for a lot less money than when they were new. Something he pointed out to me at the last session that I will now find to be true since I am most likely not switching to 4E.

 

[I'm A Banana]

When I've seen people saying "If you don't like it go away" to me it has been expressing the feeling of "Fine, you don't like it. Why are you harshing my mellow on 4E cause you don't like it?"

A few aspects:

#1: People who are down on 4e entirely largely *don't* post here. Those who remain are those who find at least something redeeming about the edition, even if it's just a place to loot for house rules and art. They're not coming here specifically to harsh your buzz, they're coming here to discuss things that they might find useful about the next edition, and things they won't.

#2: This is a discussion board. 4e is a contentious issue. Just as people called out 3e for various problems, people will call out 4e for various problems. Even big fans. If you don't want to hear about the problems (or the praises), this forum is probably not for you. You will have to live with people dissenting, and being very vocal and very repetetive about it. That is part of why we have an ignore feature.

#3: Again, you should be responding to the content of the post, not the percieved motives of the poster. Unless they're violating some forum rule, they're totally allowed to spew venom here. You can respond to the venom, you can slap 'em on ignore, you can just not read it, whatever, they do have a right to post it here. Discuss it, report it, or ignore it. Don't try to be the Party Police kicking out everyone who isn't dressed right. They have every right to be here that you do.

 

[Fifth Element]

#3: Again, you should be responding to the content of the post, not the percieved motives of the poster. Unless they're violating some forum rule, they're totally allowed to spew venom here. You can respond to the venom, you can slap 'em on ignore, you can just not read it, whatever, they do have a right to post it here. Discuss it, report it, or ignore it. Don't try to be the Party Police kicking out everyone who isn't dressed right. They have every right to be here that you do.

I agree with your post. But I think something that could be called "spewing venom" likely violates forum rules.

It also bears mentioning that the mods here are very good at controlling troublesome posts - as long as they know what's going on. If you see a post that you think violates forum rules, just report it (the little '!' symbol on the bottom left of every post) rather than respond to it.

 

[BryonD]

Yes, but 4E diagonals are much more non-Eucidlian than 3E's.
There is an amount of non-Eculiniasm that each player can take.
3E had a nice and satisfactory amount of non-Eucladinism, IMHO.
4E has too much non-Eudlicinism for my taste, it could be a little more Eclideam.

Actually it is very easy to make the case that 3E did not have non-Eclidian diagonals.
There is a certain level of error implicit in the assumption that the world is cut up into 5 foot squares and that all standard members of any given race have the same rate of movement on that grid. This level of error has been found acceptable for all kinds of war games and RPGs and other games for quite some time. The level of error introduced by 1/2/1/2 is not significant compared to the implicit error in the system.

Even if that were not the case, 3e is the best possible system and 4e forces added error into the system.

As to the OP, I see just another strawman misrepresentation of what the 3e experience was like. If someone is playing any RPG in such a way that the action is presented to include being stabbed in the chest any number of times to no significant effect then I'd think that this is probably a game I would choose to avoid. If anyone is playing 3e that way and finds 3e to suck, it is because of the suck they are bringing to the table. And if you haven't played that way then the OP should ring as hollow as it is.

 

[Elf Witch]

First off, this isn't directed right at you, but is more a general comment.

I'm not in the camp that says if you don't like it pick up your toys and go home. Healthy discussion is a great thing. If you have an open mind and are waiting to see more to make up your mind, that's great, and expressing your like or dislike is just as valid as someone who wholeheartedly embraces 4E.

But I *AM* continually amazed and upset at the people who state time and again that 4E is not for them for X reason, or that due to Y they will never play 4E. And yet, MONTHS later they are in the 4E forums continually complaining about the latest thing they don't like and how it is destroying the game. Buh Wha?

I get that 4E is not for these people for whatever reason, but why do they feel the need to *constantly* complain about something they have said they have no interest in. A reasonable person who had no interest in a thing would not keep going back to that thing.

When I've seen people saying "If you don't like it go away" to me it has been expressing the feeling of "Fine, you don't like it. Why are you harshing my mellow on 4E cause you don't like it?"

Not liking it, that's your right. Go for it. But please, please, PLEASE stop posting 5 messages a week railing against the realism/class changes/healing changes/whatever that will keep you from 4E. We get it already.

Again, this isn't directed at a specific person, it's just my interpretation of what is going on.

On the other hand people feel upset over the change. They want to be heard. They know that some of the game designers come and read threads. I can understand that. This is their hobby too and they feel passionate about it.

So the game they love is being taken in a direction they don't want and they feel they are being told go away we don't care or want to hear about it.

Now I will admit the thread crapping is annoying from both sides. For example someone starts a thread tell me why you are looking forward to the change and you get people coming in saying why they hate the changes but vice versa is true as well you get threads on why are you not switching and you get people coming in and telling them they are wrong and this is why they should switch.

One thing that would help besides people stopping thread crapping is if everyone would chill out and realize that in a lot of this it is a matter of personal taste and opinions and stop being so easily offended and feel the need to change the other sides mind and to stop ascribing motives to the other side.

And if you want to be mellow this is the wrong time to be reading and posting. Wait a year are so this stuff will die down and most of the diehard 3.0 supporters will have gone way and found a board that is for them just like a lot of the 1/2 E people ended up doing.

 

[Asmor]

Yes, but 4E diagonals are much more non-Eucidlian than 3E's.
There is an amount of non-Eculiniasm that each player can take.
3E had a nice and satisfactory amount of non-Eucladinism, IMHO.
4E has too much non-Eudlicinism for my taste, it could be a little more Eclideam.

Hmm... It seems to me that a particular geometry either satisfies Euclid's postulates, or it does not.

Personally, I'm still holding out for a hyperbolic battle map... Will be difficult to find a table big enough for it, though.

 

[Tolen Mar]

And if you want to be mellow this is the wrong time to be reading and posting. Wait a year are so this stuff will die down and most of the diehard 3.0 supporters will have gone way and found a board that is for them just like a lot of the 1/2 E people ended up doing.

This is something I think most people lose sight of. When 3E came out, all of the discussion boards devoted to AD&D were afire with complaints both for and against each edition. The flames could be seen for miles. Very few people were swayed one way or the other by the initial rounds of arguments. Nonetheless, people continue trying.

As the years went by, anti-3.x players tried the new rules. If they liked them, they switched. If they didn't they stayed put.

This will all blow over. The trick is to not get so upset with something you read that you have an anuerism or something. Here soon enough we'll all get to see how the rules really work. A few months after that, the ranting and raving will die down to acceptable levels again.

Henry I think was right. We all need to relax, take a deep breath. A leisurely stroll in the park can do wonders.

 

[Doug McCrae]

#1: People who are down on 4e entirely largely *don't* post here.

Maybe you've got them all on ignore, but there are several prominent posters in the 4e forum who never have anything good to say about the game.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There's been plenty of threads delving into the anime argument, the videogame argument, and we hear those criticisms a lot less around these parts after those massive threads beat the dead horse to a pulp. (I can't remember the last time I seriously saw a poster arguing that anything was "too anime." And I don't have an ignore list.)

Celtavian is saying 4e is too videogame-y *and* anime in this thread. Check it out -

I don't know how old you are, but when DnD first game out it was designed for readers. People who enjoyed reading fantasy books and medieval history and wanted to play a game that allowed them to participate in a story. The game has evolved into a game that more designed for video game players and TV watchers of anime/fantasy series. Thus you can see the mechanics are more in line with what a video game player or anime watcher would envision for a character.