'Realistic' Arrangement of Ability Scores

[Roman]

Ok, forget the classic 6 way split (strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom & charisma) between ability scores divided into two groups, physical and mental abilities, that appears in D&D. Imagine for a moment that you are trying to design a 'realistic' (yes, yes, no system will be perfectly realistic) system of representing abilities. What ability score groups, ability scores and sub-ability scores would you put into such a system and how would they relate to each other?

Before anyone jumps on me that this is pointless... that the current system works well enough and anything more complex is worhtless... that it would hamper gameplay... etc, etc please don't do that. I am not actually proposing that anyone games with such a 'realistic' system - I am merely interested what it would look like. Why? Because I find it interesting and the discussion fun. Thanks!

 

[aurance]

Let's start by leaving alone the stats that have little divergence...

Strength
Constitution

Then, split out the others, which seem to be more ambivalent...

Dexterity/Intelligence/Wisdom become:

Perception (Spot/Listen from Wisdom, and hand-eye stuff from Dex)
Balance
Willpower (Parts of Wisdom, plus "force of personality" stuff from Cha)
Mind (Common sense part of Wisdom, plus Intelligence)

Charisma can become:

Appearance
Leadership (or really Charisma)

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

Go back to ye olde Skills and Powers players option book. They have each stat divided into 2 sub-categories.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[mmadsen]

I would immediately combine Strength and Constitution. Size and strength correlate quite well with toughness -- a sickly elephant is much harder to hurt (or drug) than a spry mouse.

Aerobic endurance (especially relative VO2max) would be a separate stat -- a fairly unimportant one, compared to Constitution-as-toughness.

 

[mmadsen]

Currently, Wisdom combines two truly disparate qualities: willpower and perception. Animals often have negligible impulse-control but excellent powers of perception -- although they rarely have better vision than humans. A system that regularly models both humans and animals/monsters should separate out those two qualities.

 

[Sejs]

Strength (frankly it's fine as-is. can't think of a reasonable way to split it up)

Dexterity: Agility (gross physical grace, reaction time, balance, *ref save modifier*)

Dexterity: Manual Dexterity (hand-eye coordination, fine manipulation, digit/limb stability, *most dex related skills*)

Constitution: Fitness (endurance, metabolism, *fort save modifier, run/swim checks*)

Constitution: Toughness (pain tolerance, build, *hit point modifier, concentration modifier*)

Intelligence (also fine as-is. int covers your ability to learn, rather than what you've already learned which is covered by skills)

Wisdom: Perception (sensory acuity, intuition/instinct, *listen/spot/search type skills*)

Wisdom: Willpower (mental stability, common sense, *will save modifier, profession/hearth wisdom type skills*)

Charisma (fine as-is. cha covers your ability to exert your will upon others; your mental assertiveness)


I would not include an attractiveness type stat because frankly beauity is in the eye of the beholder, pun aside. What one one culture/race would considder attractive, another culture/race would considder a flaw. (Guy A: "Look at her, she's so graceful and lithe. She's beautiful" Guy B: "Ugh, you can have her - she looks like you'd break her in two just by speaking too loudly. Someone needs to give that girl a sandwich.") Different groups' reaction to a character's appearance would vary based on their own standards of beauity, but at the same time the character's attribute would not change. So it would provide a consistant modifier, even though the situation would warrant a variable. It just wouldn't work.

 

[D+1]

Strength - duh
Constitution - indicates both a general level of physical conditioning and ability to withstand physical injury and repel disease. Would probably be influenced by body size and shape which should be noted seperately using some other categorization method, not as an ability score.
Dexterity - manual, hand-eye coordination
Agility - overall bodily coordination, incl. balance
Learning - ability to commit to memory and understand new data and concepts
Abstraction - ability to theorize entirely new concepts, probably also including the ability to correlate seemingly unrelated information
Perception/senses - possibly subdivided for each of sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste.

The level of factual knowledge on a given subject would be increased using the the learning score and perhaps abstraction, but would be recorded and used as a skill.

Willpower is such a nebulous, impossible to predict function that it couldn't possibly be "scored" with any reliability.

Physical appearance would also be noted seperately using some other better-suited categorization system, not as an ability score.

Given the parameters suggested, what I'd use would be very close to that.

 

[Roman]

Ok, so far people seem to agree on the following points:

1) Instead of dexterity there should be 'fine motor control' and 'gross motor control' (these correspond to approximately manual dexterity/hand-eye coordination and balance/agility).

2) Instead of wisdom there should be 'perception' and 'willpower'. The former should affect senses which could be construed as sub-ability scores or perhaps skills.

While the agreement on the above is not universal, it appears to be widespread. I would perhaps add 'flexibility' as a third stat to help replace dexterity. I wonder where would you put reaction time? Would that be a function of perception or balance/agility or separate altogether?

On other areas there seems to be more disagreement.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming!

 

[Sejs]

I would put Flexibility under Agility.

I would put reaction time either under Agility, OR - to take a note from shadowrun - as a seperate non-stat modifier to your initiave roll, garnered from an aggregate of your Agility and Intelligence. How responsive your body is + how quickly your mind processes information = how quickly you react to stimulus.

 

[Thanee]

Muscle (melee damage rolls, carrying capacity, speed, Climb, Jump)
Toughness (HP)
Fitness (Fortitude save, long distance running, Swim)
Agility (AC, Reflex save, Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble)
Coordination (melee/ranged attack rolls, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Rope Use)
Learning (Cleric/Wizard bonus spells, skill points, Appraise, Craft, Heal, Knowledge)
Wits (Wizard spell DC, Search, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Survival)
Perception (Listen, Spot, Initiative)
Empathy (Druid bonus spells, Handle Animal, Ride, Sense Motive)
Willpower (Cleric/Druid spell DC, Sorcerer bonus spells, Will save, Concentration)
Presence (Sorcerer spell DC, most social skills)
Appearance (first impression)

Reflex save could also be under Perception (speed and effectiveness of interpreting sensory input, which includes reaction time, which is purely mental IMHO), altho it's more a dodge save than an reaction save, I think, therefore it's probably fine that way.

Also note, that this is still abstract and there normally would be quite a few dependancies between many of those stats (like all the physical stats in some way or another relate to physical strength, Agility for example, as you need muscles to be quick and nimble, some negatively correlate, i.e. Toughness and Agility to some degree). As said, it's still abstract.

Bye
Thanee