Realistic Combat that's Simple(ish)

The way to fix this problem IMO is to have a back up PC "waiting in the wings" to be called up to the majors when the ogre gets a lucky crit and a spot opens up. Or you can play a henchman until an opportunity to introduce a new PC arises.

To me, this is a self-created crisis, and there's no need to change the rules to solve it.

Even if there's one pregenerated, there's often no way to introduce them into the game for a while, and I have to point out the majority of people do not play with henchmen; even back when more did, most were not going to be useful PCs.

So I think you're being more than a bit parochial in the assumptions you are making to make it not an issue. It might not be for you, but that's not the same thing.
 

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Even if there's one pregenerated, there's often no way to introduce them into the game for a while, and I have to point out the majority of people do not play with henchmen; even back when more did, most were not going to be useful PCs.

So I think you're being more than a bit parochial in the assumptions you are making to make it not an issue. It might not be for you, but that's not the same thing.
It's not a problem for me. If it is for you, it's because you have concerns and expectations I don't. That's fine, but it is personal to you, not some objective problem with the system. There are a lot of games I don't care for, but I don't blame them or their creators for me not liking it.

And I see no reason a player can't play a henchman for the remains of a session. And anyway, where is the party that introducing a new PC is impossible?
 

It's not a problem for me. If it is for you, it's because you have concerns and expectations I don't. That's fine, but it is personal to you, not some objective problem with the system. There are a lot of games I don't care for, but I don't blame them or their creators for me not liking it.

And I see no reason a player can't play a henchman for the remains of a session. And anyway, where is the party that introducing a new PC is impossible?
I feel like I'm feeding a troll here, but I'll bite...

Several sessions ago, the party was in a series of interdimensional ruins, some of which had different time-speeds just to complicate things. The almost-never-even hit rogue got surprised [for reasons/consequences of actions] by a golem meant to be a "full party foe", and then critted, and dropped to 0hp in a single round. By herself, out of sight/hearing from the rest of the party. The golem, mission fulfilled, moved on. She failed a Death Save. and another. And the third... She spent a Fate Point (like Top Secret, mentioned earlier, unknown never-increasing number) to change it to a success, and managed to stabilize.

Had she died... there were no ways for a new character to join the party, until they at least got out of the time-trap site. And then they were thousands of miles north of the campaign setting; yes, a new character could have joined, but it would have had to be a "local" who would then be forced into a "stranger in a strange land" story whether they wanted or not - for story reasons, it would make no sense for another adventurer from their own area to be where they were, when they were, and alive. [I guess an undead/ghost/revenant PC could be an option, but again, that's forcing the new character to be a specific thing, regardless of player interest.]

I actually had a player whose character had left the party permanently - for story/RP reasons, not death - just before this series of sessions. He just plain didn't come to the next four sessions, then two more (because everything always takes longer than expected). then came to the next one because I figured they were arriving back in the "known lands" and it would work out for the new PC. It didn't. Two more sessions later, they finally met his new character...
 

Yup. While nowadays I'm more likely to shoehorn a replacement PC in whenever I can and squint past it looking weird, it's pretty darn common in games for the party to be in some isolated locale for a bit where it doesn't make a ton of sense to encounter another likely PC. When my default orientation was of more "simulationist" bent this was more of a problem for me and I've seen and heard many stories of verisimilitude concerns obstructing access for a new PC to rejoin the group.

Henchmen, if a given group uses them (which is less likely in more mechanically complex editions, but some folks just plain didn't use them BITD either) are more likely to be on hand, but present the issue of not being the person's own character and often not of the class/character type they want to be playing.
 

It's not a problem for me. If it is for you, it's because you have concerns and expectations I don't. That's fine, but it is personal to you, not some objective problem with the system

But as I've noted, I'm not just talking about me. I'm talking about a lot of people, and a lot of kinds of campaigns and genres where that's no solution. I realize you kind of resent when that's brought up, but when someone is talking a general point, perhaps rushing in with an answer that applies to only a small subset of the hobby is more than a bit off.



. There are a lot of games I don't care for, but I don't blame them or their creators for me not liking it.

And I see no reason a player can't play a henchman for the remains of a session. And anyway, where is the party that introducing a new PC is impossible?

One out in the middle of a multi-combat raid into a location. You know that sort of thing isn't uncommon in the hobby as a whole, right? It isn't even uncommon in fantasy, let alone modern or SF games (and you've noticed we talked about guns a fair bit in this thread, right?)

So, yes, I think its legitimate to talk about things that don't just apply to your corner of the hobby, Micah.
 

I feel like I'm feeding a troll here, but I'll bite...

Several sessions ago, the party was in a series of interdimensional ruins, some of which had different time-speeds just to complicate things. The almost-never-even hit rogue got surprised [for reasons/consequences of actions] by a golem meant to be a "full party foe", and then critted, and dropped to 0hp in a single round. By herself, out of sight/hearing from the rest of the party. The golem, mission fulfilled, moved on. She failed a Death Save. and another. And the third... She spent a Fate Point (like Top Secret, mentioned earlier, unknown never-increasing number) to change it to a success, and managed to stabilize.

Had she died... there were no ways for a new character to join the party, until they at least got out of the time-trap site. And then they were thousands of miles north of the campaign setting; yes, a new character could have joined, but it would have had to be a "local" who would then be forced into a "stranger in a strange land" story whether they wanted or not - for story reasons, it would make no sense for another adventurer from their own area to be where they were, when they were, and alive. [I guess an undead/ghost/revenant PC could be an option, but again, that's forcing the new character to be a specific thing, regardless of player interest.]

I actually had a player whose character had left the party permanently - for story/RP reasons, not death - just before this series of sessions. He just plain didn't come to the next four sessions, then two more (because everything always takes longer than expected). then came to the next one because I figured they were arriving back in the "known lands" and it would work out for the new PC. It didn't. Two more sessions later, they finally met his new character...
Ok. That is to my mind an extremely unique situation, for one thing, not something you would expect or assume. Also, from what you're saying, the only acceptable answer to the particular situation you've presented is that the PCs cannot die until they get back to a place where you're comfortable introducing a new PC. If that's the case, just tell the players that their characters are immune to death for the duration of the adventure. I mean, it's true, right? Why hide it?
 

Yup. While nowadays I'm more likely to shoehorn a replacement PC in whenever I can and squint past it looking weird, it's pretty darn common in games for the party to be in some isolated locale for a bit where it doesn't make a ton of sense to encounter another likely PC. When my default orientation was of more "simulationist" bent this was more of a problem for me and I've seen and heard many stories of verisimilitude concerns obstructing access for a new PC to rejoin the group.

Henchmen, if a given group uses them (which is less likely in more mechanically complex editions, but some folks just plain didn't use them BITD either) are more likely to be on hand, but present the issue of not being the person's own character and often not of the class/character type they want to be playing.
Regarding the henchman issue, if it were me frankly I'd just get over it for the less than one session it would take in one of my games to introduce a new PC. Plus, it's often a nice change of pace to play so eine different for a little while.
 

But as I've noted, I'm not just talking about me. I'm talking about a lot of people, and a lot of kinds of campaigns and genres where that's no solution. I realize you kind of resent when that's brought up, but when someone is talking a general point, perhaps rushing in with an answer that applies to only a small subset of the hobby is more than a bit off.





One out in the middle of a multi-combat raid into a location. You know that sort of thing isn't uncommon in the hobby as a whole, right? It isn't even uncommon in fantasy, let alone modern or SF games (and you've noticed we talked about guns a fair bit in this thread, right?)

So, yes, I think its legitimate to talk about things that don't just apply to your corner of the hobby, Micah.
Like I said, if it's a problem for others, that totally fine, but it's because they have concerns and expectations I don't. I will not speak for anyone other than myself, and I don't see a lot of value in talking about what's popular unless you're trying to market to them.
 

@Theory of Games

I always base leveling and attributes of a character in fiction based on what they actually are observed to do, not on the "aura" around them. Of course, since the fiction writer wasn't making the scenario to be 100% congruent to a set of game rules, and since neither the scenario nor any RPG are perfectly realistic, there is never an exact match. But I think my take comes pretty close as a translation even if ultimately this is all a set of opinions.

No way an 18 DEX - that's peak human, equivalent to an Olympic-level gymnast.

So yes, one of the defining traits of John McCane is he performs stunts which require or which perhaps even exceed what could be expected of an Olympic level gymnast, master juggler or other DEX based profession at the peak of their field. He's arguably bordering on the low level super-heroic we see of less realistic action movie heroes like James Bond, John J. Rambo, etc.

18 CON? Definitely. He had to be ridiculously tough to endure that beating.

Applying your own standards here, he can't be 18 CON because there is a character in the narrative with higher CON. McClane's toughness is best explained as being consistent with having higher HD than a normal mortal could have, hence the choice of 6th level. CON bonuses are multiplied by level.

Of course, low CHA which reflects in how he drives everyone crazy including his estranged wife

Again, we base the CHA of the character on what we observe, not on aura. The character is highly charismatic and immediately wins the sympathy of the audience and pretty much everyone he interacts with, as well as the respect and eventual fear of his foes. In story, McClane's difficulty with his wife is not explained as being the result of a personality conflict or his low "sexiness" or "magnetism", but over a professional disagreement as each are stubborn, driven, ambitious over achievers in their own field. His wife left him because she felt he was holding her back from success and because she couldn't handle caring about him as a cop risking his life, but not because he wasn't desirable or couldn't make her feel good.

McClane has above average CHR, possibly only overshadowed by Hans Gluber in the narrative.

I don't see the need for Metacurrency - McClane is just a tough SOB. He doesn't get nailed by the bad guys because they're thieves not operators, so they don't shoot well. Not as well as McClane, an experienced NYC police detective.

At least 6 of the 11 NPCs are professional operators and should be seen as fighter classed. And we know they are above normal level because they easily defeat any normal humans that they encounter. However, they are for the most part with perhaps one exception not shown to have any abilities that are unrealistic or superhuman. McClane is on another level though, dispatching his opponents almost as easily as they dispatch normal cops and security.

Hans is (if we're using D&D) high INT/WIS/CHA and a higher level than McClane.

There is absolutely nothing we see Hans doing that requires him to be higher level than McClane. His abilities are within human norms. His arrogance suggests that he is not high WIS, and there is nothing in actions that can't be explained by high INT characters being broadly skilled. If we see human normal performance but high levels of competency, this is best explained by high attributes and not high level. McClane is a standout as a low level superhero in a world of mundanes.

Karl is the closest we get to an argument for high level, just because he is absurdly durable, but I think high CON is sufficient to explain this.

Many of us played old D&D editions without Metacurrencies for decades and our PCs did fine - usually.

If your PC did fine it was because you cheated. Straight up. You fudged the dice. I played 1e AD&D too long not fudging the dice to believe otherwise. And yes, I am well aware being asked for a saving throw is itself failure, but way to many 1e AD&D saving throws come down to by the numbers 50/50 save or die, and way too many get forced on you by non-passive NPCs etc to believe any of this. I know my players in the era were fudging, because their average rolls were probably around a 15. I have observed players never roll under a 10 for most of a year. I tolerated it because it wasn't worth fighting over, I didn't want to strain friendships and as long as the other players weren't complaining to me I wasn't being hurt.

Sometimes. Metacurrencies take the randomness out of gameplay by negating bad dice rolls and those rolls - combined with ability/skill bonuses - are meant to emulate fictional heroes.

I know what they are meant to do, but that doesn't mean that they succeed at it.

I mean, if the PCs just winwinwin all the time in every situation, I wouldn't call that playing a game and that definitely doesn't fit the fiction that inspired the games in the first place.

Both strawman and a lack of genre awareness. Not only does access to metacurrency not mean that characters don't "winwinwin" all the time in every situation, but the heroic fiction that inspires games of this sort always comes down to the hero being able to reliably win against the odds. The hero of a movie or novel always has plot protection that doesn't exist in a purely random universe. I perma-killed like 8 characters in a party of 6 by 10th level in my last D&D campaign despite metacurrency, not counting two uses of raise dead as kills, and untold numbers of occasions PCs got down to -6 or -9 hit points and frantic first aid checks and unusual tactics like bull rushes were necessary to save a dying PC. Not sure how much higher the death toll would be without metacurrency but it would be a good deal higher.

Metacurrency allows me to play the game without always metagaming as a GM, putting on kid gloves and minding all the scenarios where on average you kill 35-50% of the party just to randomness.
 
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I agree, I actually give out some extra metacurrency (the Fate Points I mentioned in my last reply), just so I don't have to be (as) careful about the scenarios I put together... use your brain, make choices, know there's a safety net - but it won't hold up if you keep pursuing a stupid or dangerous course of action. (In my game, Inigo would have died to the second stab, as I only allow one Fate Point to be spent per encounter - you can't just "gut through it" with Hero Bennies!)
 

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