Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay

aramis erak

Legend
I would run this with the DMG's social interaction rules which would lend it some structure. If the players are just talking to NPCs, that to me is exposition or possibly color and no mechanics are necessary. If either party wants something from the other that it might not get, then the social interaction rules come into play.
While the DMG social mechanics are a bit weak, and rather unsubtle, they're quite usable. Especially with the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.

Keep in mind that the best face men can get up to +12 at level 1, and +22 at level 20... being able to get the DC 10 levels is just a matter of having a face man with two buffs (so as to pick the higher), and hitting the 20 with 2 buffs and advantage is very likely to break the 20.

Also note: it's three chunks of a continuous scale - the 20 on indifferent is the 10 on friendly; the 0 on indifferent is the 10 on unfriendly.

Openly hostile or clearly allied should be a further 10 point shift...
One can make it much more subtle by making intermediate steps of slightly friendly and slightly unfriendly...

It's a solid framework.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
While the DMG social mechanics are a bit weak, and rather unsubtle, they're quite usable. Especially with the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.

Keep in mind that the best face men can get up to +12 at level 1, and +22 at level 20... being able to get the DC 10 levels is just a matter of having a face man with two buffs (so as to pick the higher), and hitting the 20 with 2 buffs and advantage is very likely to break the 20.

Also note: it's three chunks of a continuous scale - the 20 on indifferent is the 10 on friendly; the 0 on indifferent is the 10 on unfriendly.

Openly hostile or clearly allied should be a further 10 point shift...
One can make it much more subtle by making intermediate steps of slightly friendly and slightly unfriendly...

It's a solid framework.

Yes, I put these rules in the category of "Good Enough," and there's enough flexibility in them to structure a social interaction challenge, particularly as the objections or arguments the NPC raises can be the obstacles to overcome to move the needle on their attitude. Then it's just a matter of increasing or decreasing the number of objections or arguments to adjust the difficulty of the challenge.

I also shut down "Work Together" in social interaction challenges. The way to get advantage, generally, is to identify the NPC's agenda, ideal, bond, and/or flaw then exploit those when responding to the objection or argument. This also creates something for characters with at least some Wisdom or training in Insight to do to help support others who might be doing the talking.
 

pemerton

Legend
The mad tyrant is fairly well-defined in the source material - well defined, enough, that believing that he'd laugh off the PC's insult is out of the picture. He's also well-defined enough that it's pretty easy for the PCs to learn what to expect when they enter into any kind of negotiation with him and avoid really stupid decisions

<snip>

That kind of precludes "any number of reactions" being supported - some of them would just be unreasonably unpredictable from the standpoint of a player trying to actually do a good job and interacting with the environment around them in a constructive manner.
There could hardly be a clearer statement than this of the idea that the job of the PCs is to guess or infer the fiction and on that basis to solve the puzzle.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
This goes back to my question: what is the job of the players?

Isn't that kind of up to them? Presumably, they entered into some kind of negotiation with the burgomaster for a reason. For the scene in question, achieving the result they wanted from the burgomaster would be their current job.

Is guessing/inferring what the GM has decided will be the realistic response of the tyrant, or the guards, a meanngful choice? It might be meaningful inference, but if the inference is performed successfully then where is the scope for choice?

Depends on what they're negotiating for. They have a pretty broad set of choices in front of them that don't involve 1) insulting him, 2) trying to take him hostage - either of which should have had fairly predictable negative results (particularly the second).

Another way of thinking about "meaningful choice" is this: do I go along with the tyrant, or do I scornfully throw his offer back in his face? That's a choice about what sort of person I (as my PC) want to be, and what sorts of things I want to do. And if I choose to be the sort of person who scornfully throws the tyrant's offer back in his face, should it follow without further chance for action declaration that my PC is dead?

Since the OP made no implication that the PC would be dead with no further chance for action declaration - that's pretty much a non-starter as an argument. But of course a player could choose to play a PC who throws the tyrant's offer back in his face scornfully - but should he not expect to suffer the predictable consequences? Or should those consequences be unrelated to the established nature of the tyrant or not based on the scornful rejection? If they are, then what's the point of knowing anything or even trying to make rational choices?
Of course, a player could choose to play their PCs in a non-scornful manner or at least intelligent enough to swallow the scorn and turn down the tyrant's offer in a more deferential manner and then take his frustrations out on something else later once the negotiations have been peacefully completed, even if not successfully.

Should the game be a puzzle? A game of following others' leads? A chance to express the personality of one's PC? These are real questions.

In most cases, I would figure it's a mixture - there will be puzzles such as how to topple/defeat Strahd (at least in the short term), there will be chances to express the PC's personality, and there will be times when making an ill-considered choice should have negative consequences.

As for the role of the dice - I think of them as a way of randomising outcomes. Roughly speaking: the players want their PCs to succeed; it's the GM's job to establish opposition or adversity; the dice roll tells us, on any given occasion, which it is. That's pretty much been their role since D&D was invented. I don't understand why you would denigrate the use of dice in the way that you do.

Sure, but another aspect of D&D is the possibility of skilled play - and that sometimes means the players making choices that indicate their PC's actually understand the world around them and experience it as though it were real to them with real cause and effect and consequences for the things they do.

Although you refer to the PCs I think you mean the players. The PCs are making guesses only in imagination. The players are actually deciding what moves to make as they play the game.

That's really a pointlessly pedantic nitpick since you knew exactly what I meant.

And you seem to be assumng that it is the job of the players to guess, or to infer, what it is the GM has in mind. That's one way of playing the game. I don't quite see why you would describe the resulting choices made as meaningful. Putting the right number in the sudoku box is a choice, but it's a meaningful one only insofar as if I do it wrong I won't solve the puzzle. Is RPGing puzzle-solving?

I don't assume it's a question of inferring what the DM is thinking. A meaningful choice is one that is taken with a reasonable understanding of the expected consequences - consequences that will be distinct from the ones you'd face if you made a significantly different choice. If the outcome isn't related to the choice being made, like the thin-skinned tyrant just laughing it off when insulted or the guards were too drunk to make an arrest, what kind of meaning would it have? None, it's just a thing that happened, and not really a result of a player's choice.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
What resolution mechanics were involved in:
a) deciding the reaction of the king
b) resolving that the ensuing reaction resulted in execution

I dont see any mechanics at all, just GM whim.

Ah, but some may view GM whim as a mechanic in its own right.
 

pemerton

Legend
This has the hallmarks of a common problem, both in printed adventures and in homebrew: the personalities involved are meant to be an interesting encounter but are written in a fixed state, leaving no real out from the initial situation.

<snip>

I so wish adventure designers would stop thinking they're so clever by putting in these 'compromise' situations. So many don't play to compromise, but to triumph over evil, and these things always cause problems.
A related criticism: placing a notional dynamic situation with the expectation that the players will adopt one anticipated approach to resolving the situation.

It's possible to do differently in adventure design. An exmaple is The Demon of the Red Grove by Robin Laws, in the early 2000s HeroWars Narrator's Guide. There are two practical consequences of this:

(1) the adventure is shorter in its number of scenes - roughly, there is the framing and then the climax and then suggestions around the different ways it might play out (with resolution notes for each).

(2) Some of what is described as possible action in the adventure will not be used by any given group - as the different resolutions are mutually exclusive.

The bits that won't be used aren't therefore irrelevant, as they are used to help spell out context and personality for the adventure - stuff which in a different design might be presented as background rather than consequence-narration.

As you (Ovinomancer) know well, it's also possible to integrate different sorts of approach to scenario or campaign design with different sorts of mechanics to support dynamic play.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I feel like there's room for a short 3PP monograph here

Probably, yeah. I am not criticizing the DMG for not having it. There's only so much you can put in one book.

But, that also means that one cannot expect that folks will just do the thing that seems obvious, but isn't really covered in any depth in the book, because maybe nobody taught them how.
 
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Myth Master

Explorer
How do I make it still be fun for everyone (including myself)?

I'm sorry, but consequences for situations this dire are not supposed to "fun", at least not for the players who jumped feet-first into this insane act. Giving the consequences a twist to make them humorous (only darkly so) for those not in gaol is an option, but not a necessity.
The two engineered a deadly situation they were warned against to start with. This is a chore for the GM, even if one that the GM might find a twist to make amusing from his own perspective. That king, according to the description given, sharply punishes anyone who even disagrees with his policies, much less those attempting his MURDER.
The least they should have coming to them is losing their (primary weapon-) hand or being hobbled in at least one leg (ankle or knee joints purposefully broken by a barber-surgeon and allowed to heal in such a way that they are hindered in walking and prohibited from running. These should be recoverable after one, maybe two quests, but not immediately recoverable. They could be maimed and then assigned to the custody/service of a favored and trusted courtier, leaving a number of ways out to continue with whatever business the campaign was about before the incident. BUT the miscreants need time to live with the consequences first. It might just be simpler and cleaner to hang them (the headsman's axe or sword is a courtesy reserved for those of noble rank).
Either way, if it is not redressed with consequences that match the direness of attempted regicide (that's what it's called), they won't believe that there are any real consequences to their actions, and any attempt to apply such in response to later incidents will be deemed "unfair" – as pointed out above.
 
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Myth Master

Explorer
The sentiment and inconsiderate actions of the two arrogant pc's should resonate in a lot of people in that kingdom. I would let consequences happen that involve the situation/setting/factions all around.

Inconsiderate? Are you kidding me? Attempted regicide is "inconsiderate"? omfg
 

Myth Master

Explorer
Sounds like the perfect time to introduce a group of rebels talented enough to pull off a daring daytime rescue but with several key leadership positions unfilled!

Not the end of a campaign, just an unforeseen plot-twist. Remember, it's not realism so much as verisimilitude to pulp adventure stories we're aiming for (usually).

I mean, if a hot-headed hero can't pull a shiv on a terrible king, why are we even playing?

Because, for it to be even the the least tiny bit believable, they should have died at the hands of the dozens of armed and armored guards in and surrounding the audience chamber/throne hall if they had succeeded. Those were the guys that clapped the failed assassins' in irons as the king directed. This is a powerful ruler ... in his own home ... surrounded by just about every official and noble in the kingdom of any status, who all depend on him for their continued well-being.
 

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