Really permament?

[Artoomis]

Is there a feat like this that is not epic?

Tenacious Magic [Epic]
Prerequisites
Spellcraft 15 ranks.

Benefit
Choose one spell you know or spell-like ability you possess. Whenever the chosen form of magic would otherwise end due to a dispel effect, the magic is instead only suppressed for 1d4 rounds. The magic still ends when its duration expires, but the suppressed rounds do not count against its duration. You can dismiss your own spell or spell-like ability (if dismissible) or dispel your own tenacious magic normally.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different spell or spell-like ability.

This should be able to be applied to Permanency, making Permanency really permanent.

Given the number of Epic feats that have showed up in a non-epic form, I was wondering if anyone has seen this in a non-epic form?

 

[Hypersmurf]

This should be able to be applied to Permanency, making Permanency really permanent.

It wouldn't work.

Let's say you cast Arcane Sight - duration, 11 minutes, say.

Then you cast Tenacious Permanency, making Arcane Sight's duration permanent.

A year later, someone casts Dispel Magic and suppresses your Permanency for 3 rounds. While Permanency is suppressed, Arcane Sight's duration reverts to 11 minutes, which is well past, and Arcane Sight expires.

Three rounds later, Permanency comes back up... but the spell it was attached to is gone, so it's effectively useless.

(The other issue is that a Dispel could dispel Arcane Sight as well, so you'd need to make it Tenacious too, even apart from the duration issue. One of the weaknesses of Permanent spells is that they are subject to two dispel checks on a targeted dispel; if either the original spell or Permanency is dispelled, you'll probably lose the effect.)

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

It wouldn't work.

Let's say you cast Arcane Sight - duration, 11 minutes, say.

Then you cast Tenacious Permanency, making Arcane Sight's duration permanent.

A year later, someone casts Dispel Magic and suppresses your Permanency for 3 rounds. While Permanency is suppressed, Arcane Sight's duration reverts to 11 minutes, which is well past, and Arcane Sight expires....-Hyp.

I would not think so. The permanacy is still active, only suppressed. This is like an antimagic field.

I think this would work just fine.

Of course, that's not the question here ayway, the qeustion is, "has this feat made it into some non-Epic source?"

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would not think so. The permanacy is still active, only suppressed. This is like an antimagic field.

It's not active while it's suppressed. So while it's not active, it doesn't have its normal effect.

It's like when Fly is suppressed in an Antimagic Field. While it's not active, you fall. When you're no longer in the field, you can fly again, assuming the fall didn't kill you.

When Permanency is suppressed, the spell it's affecting is temporarily non-permanent again. When Permanency comes back up again, the spell it's affecting will once again be permanent... assuming it hasn't expired.

If, for example, someone suppressed the Tenacious Permanency only a couple of minutes after I cast Arcane Sight, then Arcane Sight will still be in effect when Permanency comes back up, and will be permanent once more. But if they dispel it 20 minutes after I cast Arcane Sight, then when Permanency comes back up, Arcane Sight will already be gone.

Let's say I have a Tenacious Energy Immunity (Fire) cast, and I'm standing in a river of lava. Someone casts Dispel Magic, and suppresses my Energy Immunity for 3 rounds. Would you say I take no damage from the lava, because "It's still active, only suppressed"?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

It's not active while it's suppressed. So while it's not active, it doesn't have its normal effect.

It's like when Fly is suppressed in an Antimagic Field. While it's not active, you fall. When you're no longer in the field, you can fly again, assuming the fall didn't kill you.

When Permanency is suppressed, the spell it's affecting is temporarily non-permanent again. When Permanency comes back up again, the spell it's affecting will once again be permanent... assuming it hasn't expired.

If, for example, someone suppressed the Tenacious Permanency only a couple of minutes after I cast Arcane Sight, then Arcane Sight will still be in effect when Permanency comes back up, and will be permanent once more. But if they dispel it 20 minutes after I cast Arcane Sight, then when Permanency comes back up, Arcane Sight will already be gone.

Let's say I have a Tenacious Energy Immunity (Fire) cast, and I'm standing in a river of lava. Someone casts Dispel Magic, and suppresses my Energy Immunity for 3 rounds. Would you say I take no damage from the lava, because "It's still active, only suppressed"?

-Hyp.

You have one view, I don't agree. My view is also based upon the rules. Frankly, it makes no difference anyway, as the only thing that matters will be how my DM rules.

Meantime, does anyone know of a non-Epic feat equivalent to Tenacious Magic?

 

[Hypersmurf]

My view is also based upon the rules.

Your view that a suppressed spell is still active?

Which rules?

-Hyp.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't think it is clear what happens to the duration of the original spell when permanency is cast. It might be that it is still "running in the background" and can take over if the permanency is dispelled. Or it might be that the duration of permanency replaces the duration of that spell. In that case, it seems plausible that if the permanency is suspended, so is the target spell; and if the permanency resumes, so does the target spell.

Whether or not the original spell duration is "running in the background" is not specified in the text of permanency. This interaction is not covered by the wording of the Tenacious Magic feat, and so I think it is a lacuna in the rules. The DM has to rule on the basis of what he thinks best matches his mental model of how these spells works. It's a DM call, not covered by the rules.

And no, I'm not aware of any non-epic version of this feat.

 

[Artoomis]

Your view that a suppressed spell is still active?

Which rules?

-Hyp.

Cheiromancer expressed my view rather well. Either way is fine within the rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't think it is clear what happens to the duration of the original spell when permanency is cast.

"This spell makes certain other spells permanent."

And Permanency itself has a duration of Permanent; the change to the original spell is not instantaneous, but lasts as long as Permanency is in effect.

If Permanency ceases to be in effect, then the change it made to the original spell (making that spell permanent) no longer applies; that spell is no longer permanent.

-Hyp.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Except that the status of permanency is not a binary state of either "in effect" or "not in effect" - the Tenacious Magic adds a third possibility, of "suspended". When it returns, so should the other spell.

It's like your example of fly; when you are in the antimagic field you can't fly; your ability to fly is tied to the effectiveness of the spell. But when the spell resumes functioning, your ability to fly comes back. Why should the analogous thing not happen when it is a spell which is tied to the effectiveness of permanency?