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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Realmstalk (if you love it or hate it come on in)
- Thread starter jester47
- Start date
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
I never played in the FR in previous editions -- I was a confirmed Greyhawk fan, and viewed the original Realms products as a threat to Greyhawk (though at first, I thought they were a new game, since they didn't say D&D on them in an obvious way...).
I started reading FR stuff with the 3E FRCS. I have to say that I like the level of detail in the world, and the fact that I can pick up a book and have a lot of the background work done for me. That to me is the biggest benefit of a published campaign setting as a DM. As a player, I like knowing what the general assumptions are in the world, and the level of consistency.
That's what I hate about playing in a homebrew world -- the DM may have it all straight, but the players may not know what all the assumptions are -- so you make decisions that would be absolutely counter to what your character would actually do, based on his growing up in that world. With Greyhawk, FR, or whatever, I can pick up the sourcebook and still be on the same general page as the DM, even if the DM has added a lot of tweaks.
I just have to shake my head at those gamers who hate the Realms, giving the excuse of "too many uber-NPCs," or "too many Realms-shaking events." Good grief, it's the DM's world -- if you don't like them, don't use them. In my current FR campaign, (insert favorite NPC) either doesn't exist, or is legendary, or isn't know to the characters. The geography and history are essentially the same, the assumptions are the same -- but the PCs are the stars.
There are good reasons to dislike the Realms (too many cultures, too well-travelled, prefer homebrew, whatever) -- but most of the ones I hear are BS.
I started reading FR stuff with the 3E FRCS. I have to say that I like the level of detail in the world, and the fact that I can pick up a book and have a lot of the background work done for me. That to me is the biggest benefit of a published campaign setting as a DM. As a player, I like knowing what the general assumptions are in the world, and the level of consistency.
That's what I hate about playing in a homebrew world -- the DM may have it all straight, but the players may not know what all the assumptions are -- so you make decisions that would be absolutely counter to what your character would actually do, based on his growing up in that world. With Greyhawk, FR, or whatever, I can pick up the sourcebook and still be on the same general page as the DM, even if the DM has added a lot of tweaks.
I just have to shake my head at those gamers who hate the Realms, giving the excuse of "too many uber-NPCs," or "too many Realms-shaking events." Good grief, it's the DM's world -- if you don't like them, don't use them. In my current FR campaign, (insert favorite NPC) either doesn't exist, or is legendary, or isn't know to the characters. The geography and history are essentially the same, the assumptions are the same -- but the PCs are the stars.
There are good reasons to dislike the Realms (too many cultures, too well-travelled, prefer homebrew, whatever) -- but most of the ones I hear are BS.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
BACKGROUND:
*Played quite a bit of 2e Realms. When it wasn't Ravenloft, it was the Realms.
* Baught some 3e realsm material. Haven't DMed it yet, but check out the thread where I'm thinking of melding it with CoC.
WHAT I LOOK FOR:
* Originality. This is a big one. A setting can't be one I could do on my own.
* Flexibility. Another HUGE one. The campaign has to be one I can senselessly butcher without anyone telling me otherwise.
* A schtick. A less important one, I like a setting to give me a feel when I read it over...a sense of how the setting ticks....
LIKES:
* The place is fleshed out (saving DM's some work)
* The place is a mish-mash. It allows you to go through a lot of flavors in the same campaign.
* It's high-magic, done fairly competently.
* The villains are gaining some ground.
DISLIKES:
* The place is TOO fleshed out. I do something that I think is cool and people go 'sorry, you can't do that.' I'm a bit power-mad, but I HATE it when PC's can provide a coherent argument for why I shouldn't do something that I think is neat.
* The place is an unrealistic mish-mash. It's okay to have a lot of different possibilities, but it's BAD that each is really it's own island without much interaction between them.
* Unoriginality. Though many consider it one of it's strengths, I consider it something that fully turns me off to it...as I've siad, I could ochestrate the Realms myself if given a bit of a push and forced to not do anything really drastically different from normal fantasy. This bleeds into a lot of problems it has, too...it's unoriginal, so it's easy for people to add their stuff (including fleshing it out more), and it makes the mish-mash nothing special, and...
* The PC's can't be the best. I want MY PC's to be the Elminsters and Drizzits and Simbuls of the world. I don't want people already in that position...I don't want them saving the world from the big bads, I want the PC's to do it. It's more complex than that the NPC's can save them if they fall...that's not a big deal. What I want is for the PC's to be able to be the best in the land. I want the PC's to be leaving their names on the tounges of great evils. I want the PC's to brave the deapths of hell, or to rebel against their harsh culture. I want the PC's to become the lords and ladies of the cities and towns. And the fact that there's already someone there means that they can't, at least not without something deposing the poeple who are already there. There's no way that I can dedicate enough time to a campaign to make the PC's more powerful than Elminster. And that annoys me a LOT.
* A minor annoyance -- things that are arguably core are recruited for FR exclusively. I can't learn about the Genasi unless I want a heapin' helpin' of Realms with 'em. Poopoo on that.
*Played quite a bit of 2e Realms. When it wasn't Ravenloft, it was the Realms.
* Baught some 3e realsm material. Haven't DMed it yet, but check out the thread where I'm thinking of melding it with CoC.
WHAT I LOOK FOR:
* Originality. This is a big one. A setting can't be one I could do on my own.
* Flexibility. Another HUGE one. The campaign has to be one I can senselessly butcher without anyone telling me otherwise.
* A schtick. A less important one, I like a setting to give me a feel when I read it over...a sense of how the setting ticks....
LIKES:
* The place is fleshed out (saving DM's some work)
* The place is a mish-mash. It allows you to go through a lot of flavors in the same campaign.
* It's high-magic, done fairly competently.
* The villains are gaining some ground.
DISLIKES:
* The place is TOO fleshed out. I do something that I think is cool and people go 'sorry, you can't do that.' I'm a bit power-mad, but I HATE it when PC's can provide a coherent argument for why I shouldn't do something that I think is neat.
* The place is an unrealistic mish-mash. It's okay to have a lot of different possibilities, but it's BAD that each is really it's own island without much interaction between them.
* Unoriginality. Though many consider it one of it's strengths, I consider it something that fully turns me off to it...as I've siad, I could ochestrate the Realms myself if given a bit of a push and forced to not do anything really drastically different from normal fantasy.
This bleeds into a lot of problems it has, too...it's unoriginal, so it's easy for people to add their stuff (including fleshing it out more), and it makes the mish-mash nothing special, and...* The PC's can't be the best. I want MY PC's to be the Elminsters and Drizzits and Simbuls of the world. I don't want people already in that position...I don't want them saving the world from the big bads, I want the PC's to do it. It's more complex than that the NPC's can save them if they fall...that's not a big deal. What I want is for the PC's to be able to be the best in the land. I want the PC's to be leaving their names on the tounges of great evils. I want the PC's to brave the deapths of hell, or to rebel against their harsh culture. I want the PC's to become the lords and ladies of the cities and towns. And the fact that there's already someone there means that they can't, at least not without something deposing the poeple who are already there. There's no way that I can dedicate enough time to a campaign to make the PC's more powerful than Elminster. And that annoys me a LOT.
* A minor annoyance -- things that are arguably core are recruited for FR exclusively. I can't learn about the Genasi unless I want a heapin' helpin' of Realms with 'em. Poopoo on that.
jester47
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
I think my point is that the FR is all of that and none of that. Its different things to different people. And that is why I started this thread. I wanted to see what the different views of the realms were and the reasoning behind them. Yes there is what is in print, but it goes way beyond that. I think comparing the written word of campaign settings is like comparing apples to apples. Its mostly useless.
My version of the realms is not happy. It is not populated. Things beyond civilizatoin are dangerous. And even civilization is not anything to write home about. There is a sinister side to everything. Even the good guys. In my realms, there is a big question as to weather the powerful forces of good are still good. I keep a copy of WHFRP next to my realms sourcebooks. It is a reminder that the realms can FEEL that way too. But then that begs the question: would I just be using the maps for a campaign of a different sort? The answer is undoutedly no. I still use the silver marches, the city of waterdeep, and the haunted halls of eveningstar. They have the same layout and the same monsters. But I present everything with teaspoon of grit and a cup of the surreal. I add a cup of the primeval and then trim with a layer of darkness. Magic and nature are bigger than everything else and civilisation is always a temporary condition. But if I was running Kalamar, it would be the same.
I think that is why I just shrugged my shoulders when everyone started talking about the Scarred Lands. "Wow, the cosmology is different, but overall, it sounds like my FR campaigns."
The thing that I thought was great about reading eds stuff was the idea that elminster is not really sane. I think thats great. I think it is wonderful that this guy can go Zagyg on Faerun at the drop of his hat (notice his hat is now missing).
Aaron.
I played AD&D 2E in the realms for about 10 years and I am still playing and DMing in the Realms, now with 3E, with 2 weekly campaigns. I read a ton of the novels
What I like about the realms is the scope of it, and the adaptability. I can borrow about everything (from novels, movies, TV-series and other settings) and bring it into the realms somehow, and I can get rid of anything I dislike.
I made some rather big tweaks in my campaigns, but still can use most of the official sourcebooks without problems.
First I cut way down on magic items. I go for a world with few (but also often powerful) magic items, where all magic items have a history. No magic shops. No wizards advertising for custom items. No temples selling potions, or even giving bulk discounts. Most people use either mundane gear, masterwork items, or buff themselves and allies with spells.
Second, less treasure. There are no orc tribes possessing tons of gold, not bandits amassing a fortune just ripe for the picking. Not many tombs filled with gold. People pay less for "adventuring services" as well. Having 1000 gold from pure loot at level 10 is pretty good for an adventurer. On the other hand, the skills and abilities of the PCs support a pretty good life, be it the bard entertaining, the swashbuckler gambling, the paladin supported by her church (and being the fiancée of a very rich noble), the rogue dealing in information and the elf bounty hunting. Basically, the PCs don't have to care about money to live, anything they loot can be used for their pet projects.
Since adventuring does not pay that well, adventurers are not that rich compared with the rest of the people - they are about on the same scale as mercenaries after a campaign with some plunder, with some exceptions of groups that struck it big.
Less spellcasters as a whole. There are no dozens of high-level wizards tending bars. No legions of high-level clerics polishing idols and statues in every temple. I don't always use the stats from the FRCS for the existing high level spellcasters, and usually do not define their levels. Elminster is a sage, pretty sure a capable wizard, but nothing past that is known for sure. The tales always get exagerated anyway. As long as no one needs him to cast Elminster can be a level 5 wizard for all I care.
Certain spells are banned, others are almost nonexistent. Teleport and Teleport without error and all the instant relocation spells with a greater range than Dimension Door are only available to NPC-mages that take a prestige class like the wayfarer from T&B, but without spell progression. People in need of a fast transport can either look for such a mage - and hope they have enough money or services to compensate his time should they succeed to convince him to aid them - or they can look for ancient, semi-reliable portals scattered among ruins and the like.
Ressurection and similar spells are rare. Dead usually is dead. Harm is banned. Haste is banned. Divine Power just gives you 18 strength, nothing more. Persistent spell does not exist. Improved Invisibility and Fly are very rare. People do not usually cast Polymorph Other on allies as there are side effects. There are other spells banned as well - anything that results in combats that are basically dogfights between stealth-fighters on afterburner, or nuclear exchanges between superpowers (i.e. hasted invisible flying characters battling each other in the 1.5 rounds until the first save is failed against the save or die spell waves.)
The societies of the realms are a lot more grim than the FRCS suggests. Peasants don't live a good life, nobility means a lot or all in most countries. The dales are modelled after the medieval swiss, a bunch of rather backward peasants good at fighting, sought after as mercenaries. Cormyr is a centralized monarchy modelled after France. South of Baldur's Gate and Cormyr slavery is the norm. Death or enslavement is a common punishment for many crimes in almost all civilized countries. True good states are very rare - most leaders are neutral, having to compromise their morals for politics. The true power, money, lies with the (noble) landholders, or with merchant companies or houses, not with some eccentric mage living in an out of the way tower.
Racism and to a lesser degree sexism run rampant.
Elves have no second wind, they are a people rooted in traditions, often unable to cope with the rapidly advancing humans. Elven magic is on the verge of becoming outdated compared to human-driven magic research. In some countries, namely Halrua, the magic knowledge available to humans has mainly surpassed elven traditions due to 3000 years of research driven by humans zeal for progress. Elves generally look down on humans, but with far less reason than 1000 or even 200 years before. Stuck between the chaotic, carefree attitude of eternal children, and the stiffling taditions of long-lived beings that stiffles progress they have not much to look forward to. The elven items - most very old - are more graceful and more beautiful than comparable items from human or dwarves, but dwarven items, especially metal, are clearly better, of higher quality.
Dwarves are also a people whose time has past. The Thunder Twin event never happened, dwarven numbers keep declining. They have kept up, however, with progress in metalworking and mining, and are still the best at their craft.
Halflings are basically as they are presented, but not too common.
Gnomes are rare. There is no odd tinker gnome in every city.
One campaign is set in Mulhorand/Unther, which I modified even further. Both countries are structured after egypt, and are almost twin cultures.
Religion-wise, I remodeled the Mulhorandi pantheon and culture. There are still gods walking the palaces in Skuld. No good gods though, only neutral gods. Mulhorand is a theocratic society modeled after communist russia, with the clerics of the different temples instead of the party. Unther was a manchester-capitalistic society controlled by their godking, and fell apart after the godking died, ripe for the picking by Mulhorand. Arcane casters in Mulhorand are, due to the belief that magic is god-granted and use of it without clerical backing is heresy, and due to the long-standing conflict with the Red Wizards of Thay, persecuted and very rare. The church of Toth, however, is mainly composed of mages with a few levels of cleric, for appearance's sake. The Godes Isis was struck by Set through a plot and her personality fragmented. Her different fragments - each a diferent aspect of her portofolio, and a shard of her mind - compete with each other. The result is a Godess with Split personalities. Good thing she can have multiple avatars.
Historically, many events have not happened yet, or will not happen at all. King Azoun still lives, and since one campaign is centered in Cormyr, he may keep on living if the party gets involved. Shade has not yet appeared. The retreat is still going on.
I am sure I forgot something, but the gist of it should be clear.
What I like about the realms is the scope of it, and the adaptability. I can borrow about everything (from novels, movies, TV-series and other settings) and bring it into the realms somehow, and I can get rid of anything I dislike.
I made some rather big tweaks in my campaigns, but still can use most of the official sourcebooks without problems.
First I cut way down on magic items. I go for a world with few (but also often powerful) magic items, where all magic items have a history. No magic shops. No wizards advertising for custom items. No temples selling potions, or even giving bulk discounts. Most people use either mundane gear, masterwork items, or buff themselves and allies with spells.
Second, less treasure. There are no orc tribes possessing tons of gold, not bandits amassing a fortune just ripe for the picking. Not many tombs filled with gold. People pay less for "adventuring services" as well. Having 1000 gold from pure loot at level 10 is pretty good for an adventurer. On the other hand, the skills and abilities of the PCs support a pretty good life, be it the bard entertaining, the swashbuckler gambling, the paladin supported by her church (and being the fiancée of a very rich noble), the rogue dealing in information and the elf bounty hunting. Basically, the PCs don't have to care about money to live, anything they loot can be used for their pet projects.
Since adventuring does not pay that well, adventurers are not that rich compared with the rest of the people - they are about on the same scale as mercenaries after a campaign with some plunder, with some exceptions of groups that struck it big.
Less spellcasters as a whole. There are no dozens of high-level wizards tending bars. No legions of high-level clerics polishing idols and statues in every temple. I don't always use the stats from the FRCS for the existing high level spellcasters, and usually do not define their levels. Elminster is a sage, pretty sure a capable wizard, but nothing past that is known for sure. The tales always get exagerated anyway. As long as no one needs him to cast Elminster can be a level 5 wizard for all I care.
Certain spells are banned, others are almost nonexistent. Teleport and Teleport without error and all the instant relocation spells with a greater range than Dimension Door are only available to NPC-mages that take a prestige class like the wayfarer from T&B, but without spell progression. People in need of a fast transport can either look for such a mage - and hope they have enough money or services to compensate his time should they succeed to convince him to aid them - or they can look for ancient, semi-reliable portals scattered among ruins and the like.
Ressurection and similar spells are rare. Dead usually is dead. Harm is banned. Haste is banned. Divine Power just gives you 18 strength, nothing more. Persistent spell does not exist. Improved Invisibility and Fly are very rare. People do not usually cast Polymorph Other on allies as there are side effects. There are other spells banned as well - anything that results in combats that are basically dogfights between stealth-fighters on afterburner, or nuclear exchanges between superpowers (i.e. hasted invisible flying characters battling each other in the 1.5 rounds until the first save is failed against the save or die spell waves.)
The societies of the realms are a lot more grim than the FRCS suggests. Peasants don't live a good life, nobility means a lot or all in most countries. The dales are modelled after the medieval swiss, a bunch of rather backward peasants good at fighting, sought after as mercenaries. Cormyr is a centralized monarchy modelled after France. South of Baldur's Gate and Cormyr slavery is the norm. Death or enslavement is a common punishment for many crimes in almost all civilized countries. True good states are very rare - most leaders are neutral, having to compromise their morals for politics. The true power, money, lies with the (noble) landholders, or with merchant companies or houses, not with some eccentric mage living in an out of the way tower.
Racism and to a lesser degree sexism run rampant.
Elves have no second wind, they are a people rooted in traditions, often unable to cope with the rapidly advancing humans. Elven magic is on the verge of becoming outdated compared to human-driven magic research. In some countries, namely Halrua, the magic knowledge available to humans has mainly surpassed elven traditions due to 3000 years of research driven by humans zeal for progress. Elves generally look down on humans, but with far less reason than 1000 or even 200 years before. Stuck between the chaotic, carefree attitude of eternal children, and the stiffling taditions of long-lived beings that stiffles progress they have not much to look forward to. The elven items - most very old - are more graceful and more beautiful than comparable items from human or dwarves, but dwarven items, especially metal, are clearly better, of higher quality.
Dwarves are also a people whose time has past. The Thunder Twin event never happened, dwarven numbers keep declining. They have kept up, however, with progress in metalworking and mining, and are still the best at their craft.
Halflings are basically as they are presented, but not too common.
Gnomes are rare. There is no odd tinker gnome in every city.
One campaign is set in Mulhorand/Unther, which I modified even further. Both countries are structured after egypt, and are almost twin cultures.
Religion-wise, I remodeled the Mulhorandi pantheon and culture. There are still gods walking the palaces in Skuld. No good gods though, only neutral gods. Mulhorand is a theocratic society modeled after communist russia, with the clerics of the different temples instead of the party. Unther was a manchester-capitalistic society controlled by their godking, and fell apart after the godking died, ripe for the picking by Mulhorand. Arcane casters in Mulhorand are, due to the belief that magic is god-granted and use of it without clerical backing is heresy, and due to the long-standing conflict with the Red Wizards of Thay, persecuted and very rare. The church of Toth, however, is mainly composed of mages with a few levels of cleric, for appearance's sake. The Godes Isis was struck by Set through a plot and her personality fragmented. Her different fragments - each a diferent aspect of her portofolio, and a shard of her mind - compete with each other. The result is a Godess with Split personalities. Good thing she can have multiple avatars.
Historically, many events have not happened yet, or will not happen at all. King Azoun still lives, and since one campaign is centered in Cormyr, he may keep on living if the party gets involved. Shade has not yet appeared. The retreat is still going on.
I am sure I forgot something, but the gist of it should be clear.
Zarrock God of Evil
First Post
BACKGROUND:
First came into FR through the Moonshae trilogy and later the Avatar trilogy. I was first introduced to the FR as a campaign setting by my older cousin. When I shifted from DL to FR (2E grey boxed set), I suddenly felt that I had the space, cultural options and organisations at my hands that I had been missing since my Known World days in OD&D.
I've played a modified version of FR since 1995 and I am currently adapting it to fit with the - IMO absolutely wonderful FRCS - and the changes it instated in the Realms.
Computer games like Baldur's Gate have really managed to bring the Realms to life and I immediately started a campaign in Amn after playing through the whole series.
WHAT I LIKE:
The feel is grittier now than ever and the villanious organisations are great
I love the Shades - especially the artwork.
The Realms provide enormous possibilities and character options -any kind of cultural and racial background is feasible.
The rules options in the new FR line are terrific and evocative. Just my taste in PrC, spells, new domains, monsters and races. Regional feats are a great addition to the system. To my mind the FR rules are DnD Deluxe.
The FRCS is well-organised and very utilitarian - much more so than the mishmash that was the 2E Campaign Box (pure fluff).
Elves and Dwarves are on their way back - thank you. The tolkienesque approach is wonderful in LotR but I don't want it in my campaign.
WHAT I DON'T LIKE
I have a lot of work to do if I want to integrate the cool changes to the timeline from FRCS into my own timeline. But this is a positive problem - I want to integrate the changes WotC made AND keep my additions. A minor issue...
I want the whole world detailed - 3E supplements for Zakhara, Maztica and especially Kara-Tur are sorely missed.
WHAT I CHANGED
I added the continent of Taladas to the FR (so cool - but no room for it in DL IMO)
The unknown lands are Nyambe (African settings) and another is a great Irda Empire (I love the Irda - just not the static DL ones - these are High Ogres - some good, some evil).
I added an evil god and some evil organisations of my own.
Tharizdun and the ToEE are core parts of my Realms campaign.
-Zarrock
First came into FR through the Moonshae trilogy and later the Avatar trilogy. I was first introduced to the FR as a campaign setting by my older cousin. When I shifted from DL to FR (2E grey boxed set), I suddenly felt that I had the space, cultural options and organisations at my hands that I had been missing since my Known World days in OD&D.
I've played a modified version of FR since 1995 and I am currently adapting it to fit with the - IMO absolutely wonderful FRCS - and the changes it instated in the Realms.
Computer games like Baldur's Gate have really managed to bring the Realms to life and I immediately started a campaign in Amn after playing through the whole series.
WHAT I LIKE:
The feel is grittier now than ever and the villanious organisations are great
I love the Shades - especially the artwork.
The Realms provide enormous possibilities and character options -any kind of cultural and racial background is feasible.
The rules options in the new FR line are terrific and evocative. Just my taste in PrC, spells, new domains, monsters and races. Regional feats are a great addition to the system. To my mind the FR rules are DnD Deluxe.
The FRCS is well-organised and very utilitarian - much more so than the mishmash that was the 2E Campaign Box (pure fluff).
Elves and Dwarves are on their way back - thank you. The tolkienesque approach is wonderful in LotR but I don't want it in my campaign.
WHAT I DON'T LIKE
I have a lot of work to do if I want to integrate the cool changes to the timeline from FRCS into my own timeline. But this is a positive problem - I want to integrate the changes WotC made AND keep my additions. A minor issue...
I want the whole world detailed - 3E supplements for Zakhara, Maztica and especially Kara-Tur are sorely missed.
WHAT I CHANGED
I added the continent of Taladas to the FR (so cool - but no room for it in DL IMO)
The unknown lands are Nyambe (African settings) and another is a great Irda Empire (I love the Irda - just not the static DL ones - these are High Ogres - some good, some evil).
I added an evil god and some evil organisations of my own.
Tharizdun and the ToEE are core parts of my Realms campaign.
-Zarrock
Wormwood
Adventurer
What I Changed:
- The re-introduction of Portal magic allows for an increase in traffic between Kara-Tur and Faerun, without having to endure the long overland route. Just about every large city has a small 'Kara-Town' sector, bustling with exotic immigrant activity. (I did this to allow Oriental Adventures classes and races into my existing FR game...and it works well).
- Sales of magic items are similarly common, once average spellcasters caught wind of how much money the Red Wizards were pocketing from the practice. Now the market is getting out of control, since the amount of money involved is an order of magnitude greater than anything the normal economy was meant to deal with. New trade bars of 10 and 50 thousand gp value are becoming common, and an economic disaster is looming in the very near future.
- Forest Gnomes are extinct, leaving the 'tinker' Rock Gnomes as the only surviving surface Gnomes left.
Desdichado
Hero
Aaron, I guess I don't understand really then, if you're going to make such drastic changes to the feel and tone of the campaign setting, why use it? Are the maps and names really so good that they need to be used when everything else is tweaked?
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