Rebutting a fallacy: why I await 5e (without holding my breath)

[delericho]

3e was very explicitly built around system mastery. This is a stated fact given by the developers of the game themselves.

No, system mastery was explicitly built into 3e. That's not quite the same thing.

 

[Balesir]

Pretty edition wars in here.

No. I warn you, you cannot do this. Calling edition wars "pretty" is not "on message". It's not politically correct. Please retract that statement - it is not "acceptable".

 

[billd91]

No, system mastery was explicitly built into 3e. That's not quite the same thing.

Yeah, I knew someone was going to misuse the Monte Cook passage again.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Umbran]

There's nothing rational about this debate, and I posted not for those people, but for other people watching, with a more rational view of the issue.

That doesn't follow - you cannot sway those with a more rational view without a rational argument. And you don't offer a rational argument, you offer unsupported assertions. Moreover, rational folks will not allow you to shift the burden of proof. You won't sway such people by making an assertion, and claiming victory if others cannot disprove it. They know that's a weak rhetorical dodge, and reject it.

It sounds like you are engaged in a battle for the hearts and minds of hypothetical, unnamed readers, like you're trying to WIN. That's likely the root of your problem - trying to win when nobody can keep score.

You know as well as I do that you'll always let the 4e-bashers have their fun, and stop in if, and only if, the other side of the argument puts up too much of a fight.

Actually, what I know is that both sides of the argument say we are partial to the other guys, with about equal frequency. From time to time, we've even counted the complaints. So, we have good reason to think we are fairly even-handed.

 

[Water Bob]

THAC0 first appears in the 1e DMG.


RC

The acronym "THACO" is not in the 1E DMG. I assume you're referring to the chart heading in appendix E of the 1E DMG.

THACO, as a concept and the acronym came around late in the 1E period. Yes, it's in the 1E DMG, on those charts, but it really doesn't get seen again until the end of the 1E era. It showed up in some adventures and Dragon articles.

It wasn't until 2E that the game fully embraced the term and the concept, incorporating it officially into the game in the 2E PHB.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Mark CMG]

Actually, what I know is that both sides of the argument say we are partial to the other guys, with about equal frequency. From time to time, we've even counted the complaints. So, we have good reason to think we are fairly even-handed.

Please don't discuss moderation in-thread.

 

[Umbran]

Please don't discuss moderation in-thread.

The rule is really to not discuss specific moderation actions. General policies and overall trends and behavior are allowed points of discussion. We usually keep them to the Meta forum, but they are not forbidden.

That being said, I'd already made my point, and I don't expect it to intrude on the discussion any further.

 

[Water Bob]

Yes, it is in the 1e DMG. Yes, it exists as a concept, and we know this because it is in the 1e DMG.

Is it widely adopted? Not until the 2e era.

But it exists in 1e.


RC

Got a page number where the acronym THACO appears in the 1E DMG?

As I said earlier, Appendix E doesn't count as it doesn't use the acronym.