Recent Dragon Mag Article Pulled?

[nedjer]

Maybe it's because I've spent my entire life around academics and in academia, most of my family are academics, and I have plenty of experience in just how fashions in "expertise" can change wildly. But I think ancedotal evidence from someone with a wide variety of data points - lots of players - is at least as valuable as theory from a child psychologist or specialist in active learning. And I'd value a teacher's personal accounts - "This is how my pupils behave in my classroom" - over any theoretical model of how children are supposed to behave.

Dusty tomes and science meets politics would be well dull. But a teacher's 'qualified' anecdotes on playing RPGs with kids or setting-up groups seems likely to be more useful and coherent than the article that went out

 

[MrMyth]

Thing is... I don't think he tried hard enough. I think I wouldn't have had any objections if that had been his disclaimer ("These are just my experiences, I recognize they are not universal, and one should always try to find an individuals tastes and cater to those, regardless of gender - but for me, these are the attitudes I have most commonly come across.")

Ignoring the article's author's alleged behavior as I didn't read it.

Why should ANYBODY have to preface a statement with a disclaimer like that? Ever?

Because saying, "Here is how young female gamers act, and the best approach to take with them in a game" is very different from saying, "Here are ways that I have encouraged young female players in my games, and activities that have appealed to many of them."

When you are speaking from a position of authority, especially about a sensitive topic like this... yeah, I think some disclaimer is useful. The article was not just a recounting of his personal experiences, it was guidelines on dealing with young gamers - advice being given to anyone visiting the website.

If you are in that position, and give advice that involves stereotypes or generalities, that is a very different situation from somehow telling personal stories and the listening being able to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Janx]

Because saying, "Here is how young female gamers act, and the best approach to take with them in a game" is very different from saying, "Here are ways that I have encouraged young female players in my games, and activities that have appealed to many of them."

When you are speaking from a position of authority, especially about a sensitive topic like this... yeah, I think some disclaimer is useful. The article was not just a recounting of his personal experiences, it was guidelines on dealing with young gamers - advice being given to anyone visiting the website.

If you are in that position, and give advice that involves stereotypes or generalities, that is a very different situation from somehow telling personal stories and the listening being able to give them the benefit of the doubt.

fair enough.

so then, the question is, why did WotC's editor let it be published as is? The editor should have seen the phrasing and had it changed.

Was the phrasing of the author that bad? Or just bad if you read more into it?

On some topics, I thik some people are looking to find offense.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

A few thoughts:

I think the worst of it was not the article itself, but the author's other postings. I do have some concerns about the article.

I'm an elementary teacher and the difference between boys and girls is also a hot topic in education. Yes, on average boys scores for math are slightly higher, and girls scores for reading are slightly higher. However, the real important thing to remember is that there is more difference WITHIN the genders, than between.

In other words, in any classroom there some of the girls will be better at math than most of the boys, and some of the boys will be better at reading than most of the girl.

The real fact of the matter is not "girl are different than boys" but "students are different from other students".

I think the same can apply to gaming. All players are different. As DMs we should try to be aware of the player's in our group. If we DM a pubic game, I think it's more important to know about different play styes (powergamer, story teller, etc) than just know if they player is male or female.

In other news...

The part of the article that I actually found most troubling did not have to do with the boy v. girl, it was the "Repercussions of Violence" section. In in he suggests that if a (boy) PC goes on a killing spree, instead of killing the character, you should lock him up or give them an adventure where they must atone for the crimes.

I might do this when playing with adults, but with kids, I would be much more direct and tell them that these kinds of actions are not allowed in my game and that they need to make a better choice.

 

[MrMyth]

so then, the question is, why did WotC's editor let it be published as is? The editor should have seen the phrasing and had it changed.

Was the phrasing of the author that bad? Or just bad if you read more into it?

It's definitely true that the context changed significantly once some of these other quotes and background elements came to light. I honestly don't know what to think about it all - the series has been a very good one up to this point. It is a shame that an editor didn't catch this and do a better job vetting it. And it's a shame that the author made some of these jokes and comments in the past, and that may undermine the work he was doing with this series. I don't really know what more to say than that - it's all a shame.

On some topics, I thik some people are looking to find offense.

I don't think anyone needs to be looking for offense to be offended. Female gamers, I imagine, pretty regularly run into these stereotypes and comments, or get talked down to or undermined at games or game stores or online communities. Not by everyone, sure, but often enough I imagine they are sensitive to it.

When an official article, aimed specifically at setting the tone for new players getting into the game, not only supports these same stereotypes that have frustrated them, but also dismisses their right to offer criticism about it - I can see the offense. Blaming them for being offended is just the sort of attitude that keeps the problem going, I imagine.

 

[Asmor]

I'm sure there are plenty of men at WotC who might agree that women who are victims of violent abuse from their spouses deserved it for forcing their husbands to physically assault them.

Actually, that's something the original 'complainer' wrote on LiveJournal, and then later retracted after deciding it wasn't a fair thing to say. That's not something he said.

 

[Mark CMG]

Thanks, everyone. Asked and answered then. Mods can close this anytime if they feel it gets to far off board policy for their comfort level. Otherwise, everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter provided it keeps those policies in mind (politics, religion, grandma-friendly, etc.). Thanks, again. The Facebook post did make me quite curious.

 

[Umbran]

You can't expect to write stuff like that on your twitter / livejournal feed and expect to keep working

Some folks have yet to catch on to the fact that statements on the internet are not private, and won't stay in the circles you originally intend.

On the Internet, you're in a public place. If you care about your career, you should always behave with a certain degree of decorum, if not professionalism.

 

[Siberys]

It's disappointing to hear things like this... One of my favorite Eberron Dungeon adventures (Murder in Oakbridge) was written by this guy. I'm actually writing a campaign that uses it as one of the first few modules.

 

[billd91]

It's definitely true that the context changed significantly once some of these other quotes and background elements came to light. I honestly don't know what to think about it all - the series has been a very good one up to this point. It is a shame that an editor didn't catch this and do a better job vetting it. And it's a shame that the author made some of these jokes and comments in the past, and that may undermine the work he was doing with this series. I don't really know what more to say than that - it's all a shame.

Figuring out who someone is by their postings can be a real trick, though, even if they are posting under their real names. There are people who have frequented these boards who post abrasively (extremely so in some cases) and say pretty extreme things. Yet there are people who know them reasonably well who say they're not like that in person.

Is Uri Kurlianchik really such a schmuck? Maybe. He certainly gives a very bad impression with some of his posts (as reported by other people). He gives me the impression that he either doesn't care what people think about him (and anything associated with him) or he doesn't realize that people can find these things posted on the internet.

In any event, people are going to form their own impressions. Maybe they'll give Uri the benefit of the doubt and maybe they won't. I tend to fall in to the latter camp in cases like these. I think the person you project when it's harder to hold you accountable for your statements is a very interesting thing to observe.