D&D 5E Reckless Attack and Shield Master Interactions

[Lucas Blackstone]

Shoving a creature: "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature..." is not the same thing as "A shove is a special melee attack". One kind of shove is definitely a special melee attack. The kind that requires you to use your attack action. However, nothing is said about the kind of shove that requires you to use your bonus action.

It's the same thing. Shoving a creature is shoving a creature. The difference is that you use have the option to use a bonus action as part of the attack action, instead of one of the attacks ( perhaps the only attack ) granted by the attack action. Nothing suggests that it is no longer a special melee attack.

If the Shoving a Creature rules didn't apply to shoving a creature with the feat then how would you resolve the shove? History skill check vs the targets AC? Flip a coin? There's no reason the rest of the Shoving the Rules section wouldn't apply to the shove. The specifics of the feat only change the action type used. Specific vs General. You don't discard the entire rule for the specific change, just apply the specific change.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's the same thing. Shoving a creature is shoving a creature. The difference is that you use have the option to use a bonus action as part of the attack action, instead of one of the attacks ( perhaps the only attack ) granted by the attack action. Nothing suggests that it is no longer a special melee attack.

If the Shoving a Creature rules didn't apply to shoving a creature with the feat then how would you resolve the shove? History skill check vs the targets AC? Flip a coin? There's no reason the rest of the Shoving the Rules section wouldn't apply to the shove. The specifics of the feat only change the action type used. Specific vs General. You don't discard the entire rule for the specific change, just apply the specific change.

I'm with you that what you are saying is a very good interpretation of the rules in the PHB. It's also the reading I would come away with. However, it's not the only way to read them. It's also not a clearly stated rule anywhere that a "shove is a special melee attack". Instead it's "When using the attack action you can use a special melee attack to shove a creature". That's not the same thing. The way it's written only indicates that there is a special melee attack you can take to shove a creature and you can only do this when using the attack action. Saying it one way does not make it true the other. For example:

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

So there is a special melee attack that can be used to shove. That does not necessitate that a shove is always a special melee attack.

 

[transcendantviewer]

The thing you're overlooking is, you've got Reckless Attack, which means you're already a Barbarian. If you're raging, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks. So whether or not Reckless Attack applies is irrelevant anyway because you've already got advantage most of the time regardless. To answer your question, however, no. Reckless applies explicitly to attack rolls. Shoving a creature is detailed as an ability check that you're allowed to take on your turn in exchange for an attack, but it's not an attack in of itself.

 

[Shiroiken]

I'm pretty sure by RAW (and has been noted, RAI), that it IS a melee attack (of sorts). The rules are located in the combat section under Melee Attacks (the underlined header that includes Opportunity Attacks, Two-Weapon Fighting, Grappling, and Shoving a Creature), so even the Feat would count as a special melee attack.

That said, the need to declare Reckless Attack before or after the Shove is still under the ruling of the DM. I would be fine with waiting until after the Shove, since it's bad form to punish a player for taking a feat (and not even one of the "broken" ones). If I was thinking about this barbarian build, I'd check with the DM first, and if they ruled otherwise, I'd simply not choose that option (Great Weapon Master anyone?). AL might have more problems, but AL always has these kinds of problems.

 

[cmad1977]

That's what makes this question so interesting!

I'm really isn't though.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[futrtrubl]

The thing you're overlooking is, you've got Reckless Attack, which means you're already a Barbarian. If you're raging, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks. So whether or not Reckless Attack applies is irrelevant anyway because you've already got advantage most of the time regardless. To answer your question, however, no. Reckless applies explicitly to attack rolls. Shoving a creature is detailed as an ability check that you're allowed to take on your turn in exchange for an attack, but it's not an attack in of itself.

As the OP clarified this is not the issue. He's asking whether he needs to declare that he is doing Reckless Attack before the shove (since it must be done before the first attack of the turn, so whether the shove is an attack or not is what matters) or once he knows the outcome of the shove (if he succeeds the enemy is prone and he doesn't need to reckless attack to get advantage on attack rolls).

Edward

 

[redrick]

Having to declare reckless attack before using the shield bash would be lame. Odds are, the shield bash will go through (because you're a barbarian and if the fight has any consequence, you're probably raging and so you have advantage and most things have a lower average athletics score than AC), so you wouldn't take the guaranteed disadvantage for the 20% chance that you might miss your shove. So you'd just use reckless attack less, because it doesn't seem worth the risk. That seems less fun than, "oh, crap, I tried to push him with my shield but he didn't fall over, so, screw it, caution to the wind, let's get reckless on this sucker." So, since the rules are vague on the subject and one outcome seems more fun and not unbalancing, I'd go that way.

As to the question not intended to be asked, would you get advantage on a shield bash from reckless attack? Nah. Because a shove is an ability check, I'd say that precludes it from being an "attack". It just seems fair, because there are effects (like Rage) which specifically target ability checks, and other effects which specifically target attack rolls. You don't get to be both. Of course, it will probably not come up very often because, again, Rage.

 

[hejtmane]

Yes and now that it is strong it is strong for your melee class but hey it gives ranged attack disadvantage and sharp shooter feat does not over come prone so it is a trade off in some parties

 

[BookBarbarian]

I would be fine with one of my players using the Shield Master shove, and then (if the target was not knocked prone) deciding to use Reckless Attack.

 

[transtemporal]

No, reckless attack only applies to attack rolls. Shoving is an ability check.

Sweet, I can shove without breaking invisibility? Invisible shield master build incoming!