Reclaim the name of Paladin!

[LurkAway]

There are so many variations of what it means to be a Paladin, with some strongly held views one way or another, that's fine...

But I still don't see any compelling reason why a Paladin is mechanically best suited as a class, and not a theme.

If Paladin means a knight, take a fighter and add a paladin-knight theme

If Paladin means a crusader or zealot warrior, take any class and add a crusader-paladin theme (after all, Crusaders in real-life were just fighters, knights, etc.)

If Paladin means a holy warrior, take a cleric and add a champion theme

Or am I missing something?

 

[Nivenus]

No, NG and LN deities may also have orders of paladins. In the FR even Sune who is CG has one.

Which really makes no sense. That's just as sensible as a CN's most devout servants being LN.

I like the idea of paladins as the "temple-warriors" and clerics as those who minister to the people, serving both as healers and inspiring figures. I think there's room for both archetypes.

However, I also understand the argument that "paladin" has a long tradition of meaning specifically a paragon of honor and virtue (i.e., LG). However, I'm not sure that particular archetype is "big" enough to justify an entire class.

Hence my thought that paladin could be a specific form of a class that otherwise covers the holy warrior ground. Like templars.

 

[Invisible Stalker]

I'm thinking the LG Paladin should be the class default in the PHB and then the other eight themes can be developed for later. They can each have their own sets of goodies and restrictions.

I'm also going to guess the 17 charisma minimum is probably still out.

 

[howandwhy99]

Here is some paraphrasing and direct quotes of the early Paladin.

“Law and good deeds are the meat and drink of paladins. If they ever knowingly perform an act which is chaotic in nature, they must seek a high level (7th or above) cleric of Lawful Good alignment, confess their sin, and do penance as prescribed by the cleric. If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost, and no deed or magic can restore the character to paladinhood; he or she is ever after a fighter.”
“Paladins do not attract a body of men-at-arms to service as do regular fighters.”

Benefits:
1. Detect Evil 60’ distance at will with concentration. Requires correct general direction
2. +2 on all Saving Throws.
3. Immune to all forms of Disease.
4. “Lay on Hands” on others or own person. Cures 2 HP of damage / Paladin level attained. 1/day
5. Cure Disease of any sort, 1/week/5 levels of Paladin. (i.e. 2 disease 6-10)
6. “Protection from Evil” continuous emanation in 1” radius around them.
7. “Holy Sword” unsheathed and held projects a Circle of Power 1”. Dispels Magic at magic use level equal to the level of the paladin.
3rd Level = Turn Undead and demons and devils as Cleric of 1st level. +1 level increase hereafter.
4th Level (or any time thereafter) = Call Warhorse. An intelligent heavy warhorse, 5+5 HD (5d8+5), AC 5, speed of a medium warhorse (18”), magically appears, but only one such animal is available every 10 years. If the first is lost the paladin must wait until the end of the period for another.
9th Level (up to 20th) = Cleric Spells. They may never use scrolls spells, except those normally usable by fighters.

Strictures:
1. Never retain more than 10 magic items. Specifically 1 armor (suit), 1 shield, 4 weapons (including daggers, swords, etc., magic bows and arrows are considered but 1 weapon.), 4 of any other magic items.
2. Never retain wealth, “keeping only sufficient treasures to support themselves in a modest manner, pay henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors, and to construct or maintain a small castle (see DM). Excess is given away as is the tithe.
3. Tithe immediately 10% of all income (treasure, wages, etc.) MUST be given to whatever charitable religious institution (not a clerical PC) of lawful good alignment the paladin selects.
4. LG Henchmen only. “They will associate only with characters and creatures of good alignment.” “Paladins can join a company of adventurers which contain non-evil neutrals only on a single-expedition basis” “and then only if some end which will further the cause of LG is purposed.”
5. “If possible, paladins will take service or form an alliance with LG characters, whether players or not, who are clerics or fighters (of noble status).

 

[Incenjucar]

All those features would be fantastic as some sort of paragon of alignment theme. Maintain X practice to maintain Y result.

Let a wizard who is a paragon of virtue tithe 10% of their coin in exchange for a magic horse, too.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

It's obvious that there are two definitions of Paladin that are in conflict here.

There's the original definition, which is a champion of law and goodness. It may be that the holy power of a paladin didn't even come from a god, but was something his dedication allowed him to access directly.

Then there's a newer definition, which is the holy warrior of a god. This latter definition almost certainly comes as a result of the mechanics that closely associated the paladin with a deity.

Now, normally I'm not comfortable saying somebody's preferred definition is wrong, but in this case I can't help but see the later definition as a perversion of the original, and something to get away from. The holy warrior concept pretty well defines the cleric mechanically and conceptually, while the paladin represents something different.

Instead of the paladin being a devotee of a particular god, his overwhelming commitment to law and goodness has earned him the respect and loyalty of one or more gods. He doesn't have to ask for his powers. The gods give power to him because of who he is.

The idea of the fallen paladin is so strong because it's the idea of a man so committed to an ideal who loses faith. Not in a god, because the gods are a real, stable, and visible part of the world, but in goodness itself.

I'm not sure this concept can be effectively recreated for the other alignments, with the exception of the Paladin of Freedom, which is a devotee to goodness and liberty. Goodness is supposed to be hard. Evil is seductive, so being devoted to it isn't inspiring.

I think the Paladin should stick to this concept, and clerics should start wielding swords more often.

 

[LurkAway]

I'm not sure this concept can be effectively recreated for the other alignments, with the exception of the Paladin of Freedom, which is a devotee to goodness and liberty.

I like everything you wrote, but this one bugs me as a possible oxymoron. As a paragon of liberty, a Paladin of Freedom would seek freedom from any constraining expectations or rigid code of conduct, including liberty from his/her own crusade for freedom.

 

[FireLance]

Okay, now that I've gotten the rant out of my system, I must admit that I quite like some of the ideas in the thread.

Realistically speaking, I agree that the 5e design team probably wouldn't come up with a whole load of mechanics for an entire class and then restrict it to a single alignment. That said, I do like the idea of calling the base class something else - maybe Holy Warrior, Champion or even Divine Defender - and then having the paladin as a theme.

Frankly, to me, the issue isn't mechanics or even alignment. It's a mindset. You start with the basic concept of a paladin: a hero who always strives to do the right thing, because the ends do not justify the means; a protector who shields the weak and the innocent from harm, potentially at the cost of his own life; a weapon poised to strike at the powers of darkness, not because of hatred or anger, but because they must be stopped; a paragon who attempts to embody the highest virtues: sacrifice, honor, valor, justice, compassion, etc.

You play your character this way, you get to call him a paladin. If not, you're a Champion of [Deity] or a Holy Warrior of [Domain], or whatever.

 

[LurkAway]

That said, I do like the idea of calling the base class something else - maybe Holy Warrior, Champion or even Divine Defender - and then having the paladin as a theme.

This thread looks like its converging with the alignment restrictions thread.

I've convinced myself that Paladin as a theme is the best way to go, at the very least because it makes it easy to swap between Paladin and Fallen Paladin themes.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'd have no problems with Paladin as a theme, so long as whatever "new" class was created or used to take on the mantle and mechanics of the current paladin were available to ALL deities in any particular campaign. Because every deity should/would have the same sort of adventuring worshippers as any other.

If that means the 5E Cleric becomes the de facto holy warrior "new paladin" (and the Priest becomes the caster/healer component of the class), that's fine with me. Then the LG, NG, and LN deities could have their LG Paladin theme. (And conversely, the CG, CN, TN, and unaligned deities could have a Crusader theme or something too.)

But to me, base classes should have NO restrictions, only recommendations. Because not everyone designs their characters the same way.