D&D 3E/3.5 Recreating 2e-style priests in 3.5

[the Jester]

The one area in which I feel that 3e is a step backward from 2e is in the area of clerics. Specialty priests in 2e were the very best thing about the ruleset in my opinion. I would like to re-engineer something along those lines.

So I've been giving a lot of thought to this concept... here's what I've generally hashed out so far:

1. Spell lists will be based on domains only; there will be no 'generic' list. To make this work, I need to break out like about 50-60 domains to cover the existing 'generic' list. There will have to be multiple overlapping domains for instances where one spell level has multple spells applicable to one domain (eg. 2nd level cleric spells include both cure moderate wounds and lesser restoration, so maybe a Healing domain and a Restoration domain or something...?)

2. Make domains that describe the basic types of priests that a given god would have; for instance, I might end up with a Missionary domain, a Defender of the Faith domain, an Inquisitor domain, a Temple Guardian domain, etc. The granted powers of these domains will be bonus feats- specifically, armor and weapon proficiencies. These domains will determine the priest's starting proficiencies. The basic class will not grant anything other than simple weapon proficiencies.

3. Each god will give his priests somewhere around 20 domains. I like the idea of giving each god a larger list than that in order to let different priests be somewhat customized. I do recognize that this makes for a lot more bookkeeping when it comes to spell selection and the like, and I'm not sure if I'm underestimating the PITA factor, but so far I'm thinking that it's worth the hassle. (Then again, it's a lot more work on me when I'm statting out npc priests...)

4. Rewrite the domains to be more balanced with the idea of the priest having unlimited access to the spells on them. Also, since each domain will give a granted power, rewrite the granted powers to be more balanced when they come in huge numbers. I've also been thinking that some of the granted powers might come in at higher levels- for instance, the Death domain power might come in at, say, 10th level or something.

So- basic feedback so far?

 

[BRP2]

What is 3.4? 3.5 with 3.0 Power Attack?

 

[the Jester]

What is 3.4? 3.5 with 3.0 Power Attack?

Fixed, thanks!

 

[Nifft]

There are several problems with the Cleric as-is.

1/ Too generic.
2/ Too few class features (really, you get all of them at 1st level).
3/ Too much to gain by PrC'ing (relates to #2 above).

You propose to solve #1, but I think you could kill #2 and #3 at the same time, if you choose.

Here's a thread where some of us discuss Clerics as spontaneous casters: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150983


There's a list of spells in there that I suggest being the "core" 33 granted spells, in addition to all the spells from their Domains.

If you take a spontaneous caster like that, each Cleric can (to a degree) pick his own list, gaining additionally all the spells from his chosen Domain, plus whatever each specialty Priest gives.

Here's the baseline that I'd suggest (IMHO the most generic):

Pelorian Priest
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Good Saves: Will, Fortitude
Skills: 2 + Int -- Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Spells Known: as Battle Sorcerer (like Sorcerer, but -1 at each level to a minimum of 1), but also gains bonus spells known at each level (see below).

Spells per Day: as Battle Sorcerer (like Sorcerer, but -1 at each level), gains extra spells per day for a high Wisdom. Unlike a Battle Sorcerer, a Priest knows all 0 level spells (orisons) automatically.

Level -- Special
1 -- Turn Undead, 1st Domain, Orisons, Cure Light Wounds, Bless Water
2 -- Protection from Alignment, Detect Alignment
3 -- Remove Fear, Detect Undead
4 -- Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration
5 -- Consecrate, Augury
6 -- Magic Circle vs. Alignment, Cure Serious Wounds
7 -- Remove Curse, Remove Disease
8 -- Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward
9 -- Restoration, Neutralize Poison
10 -- Atonement, Break Enchantment, 2nd Domain
11 -- Commune, Hallow
12 -- Forbiddance, Heal
13 -- Hero's Feast, Word of Recall
14 -- Greater Restoration
15 -- Resurrection
16 -- Holy Aura
17 -- Dimensional Lock
18 -- True Resurrection
19 -- Gate
20 -- Miracle, 3rd Domain

(The stuff in red is the stuff I think you could take away to replace with other abilities.)


Here's a sample of how I'd change it for a different specialty priest:

Kordian Priest
HD: d10
BAB: 3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude
Skills: 4 + Int -- Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int) and Swim (Str).

Spells Known: as Battle Sorcerer (like Sorcerer, but -1 at each level to a minimum of 1), but also gains bonus spells known at each level (see below).

Spells per Day: as Battle Sorcerer (like Sorcerer, but -1 at each level), gains extra spells per day for a high Wisdom. Unlike a Battle Sorcerer, a Priest knows all 0 level spells (orisons) automatically.

Level -- Special
1 -- 1st Domain, Orisons, Cure Light Wounds, Bless Water
2 -- Protection from Alignment, Detect Alignment
3 -- Remove Fear, Detect Undead
4 -- Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration
5 -- Consecrate, Augury
6 -- Magic Circle vs. Alignment, Cure Serious Wounds, Quicken Domain spell 1/day
7 -- Remove Curse, Remove Disease
8 -- Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward
9 -- Restoration, Neutralize Poison
10 -- Atonement, Break Enchantment, 2nd Domain
11 -- Commune, Hallow
12 -- Forbiddance, Heal, Quicken Domain spell 2/day
13 -- Hero's Feast, Word of Recall
14 -- Greater Restoration
15 -- Resurrection
16 -- Holy Aura, Quicken Domain spell 3/day
17 -- Dimensional Lock
18 -- True Resurrection
19 -- Gate
20 -- Miracle, 3rd Domain

(Why did I pick Quicken? Because his Domain spells may be combat buffs, and those are things I want him to be using in combat. This ability will help mitigate ambushes. Alternately, and equally powerfully, we could force him to take the Strength domain at 1st level, and give more daily uses of its domain power at these levels.)



For a different direction:


Boccabian Priest
HD: d6
BAB: 1/2
Good Saves: Will
Skills: 6 + Int -- Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Spells Known: as Sorcerer, but also gains bonus spells known at each level (see below).

Spells per Day: as Sorcerer, but gains extra spells per day for a high Wisdom. Unlike a Sorcerer, a Priest knows all 0 level spells (orisons) automatically.

Level -- Special
1 -- Lore, 1st Domain, Orisons, Cure Light Wounds, Bless Water
2 -- Protection from Alignment, Detect Alignment
3 -- Remove Fear, Detect Undead
4 -- Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration
5 -- Consecrate, Augury
6 -- Magic Circle vs. Alignment, Cure Serious Wounds
7 -- Remove Curse, Remove Disease, 2nd Domain
8 -- Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward
9 -- Restoration, Neutralize Poison
10 -- Atonement, Break Enchantment
11 -- Commune, Hallow
12 -- Forbiddance, Heal
13 -- Hero's Feast, Word of Recall
14 -- Greater Restoration, 3rd Domain
15 -- Resurrection
16 -- Holy Aura
17 -- Dimensional Lock
18 -- True Resurrection
19 -- Gate
20 -- Miracle, 4th Domain

Lore: As Bardic Lore.


Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

Well, my approach to the issue of "too few class features" is to spread the granted powers out; as I mentioned, I envision some of them kicking it at higher levels, and these will create the character's class feature list.

I hadn't planned for a basic list of spells that everyone could use; I plan to really turn up the customization of the priest class to 11, while attempting to maintain balance. It's going to be tricky, I already know this.

 

[airwalkrr]

I'm totally with Jester on this one. The specialty priests was one of the few things I felt 2e did right. Though I have no time to work on such a behemoth project, I wholeheartedly support the idea.

 

[Nifft]

I hadn't planned for a basic list of spells that everyone could use; I plan to really turn up the customization of the priest class to 11, while attempting to maintain balance. It's going to be tricky, I already know this.

In that case, I suggest going back to Spheres instead of Domains. Grant multiple low-level spells and far fewer (possibly no) high level spells. (This is also a matter of practicality. You won't find 20 different 9th level spells.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

In that case, I suggest going back to Spheres instead of Domains. Grant multiple low-level spells and far fewer (possibly no) high level spells. (This is also a matter of practicality. You won't find 20 different 9th level spells.)

Cheers, -- N

Ahh, but I am neither afraid to pull spells from other books, nor afraid to create my own! Yeah, it's a ton of work, but I think I can come up with 20 (or even 50) different 9th-level spells.

I guess one of the best things I can do to start the ol' ball rolling is to consider what domains I need to add.

Like I posted earlier, I see a need for "descriptive" domains that specify what type of priest a character is, as well as domains that lay out the god's portfolio. There should also be some that emphasize characteristics of the deity in question (and no, I don't use godless clerics). Very quickly, I can see the following 'domain types':

-Descriptive of the priesthoold ("defender of the faith" domain)
-Elemental (air, earth, fire, water)
-Alignment (law, good, evil, chaos)
-Portfolio (spring, farming, murder, etc)
-Characteristic of deity (wisdom)

Often a god's characteristics might be distinctly different from its portfolio- for instance, Pelor is the god of light, sun, strength and healing, but might have the Wisdom domain as he himself is quite wise (even though it isn't in his area of control).

 

[the Jester]

Now to work!

I suppose my first tasks here are going to be to decide what 'priestly role' domains I'll have, and to start working on splitting the cleric spell list up...

So, for 'priestly roles' (and the types of spells offered) I have:

-Adviser: spells to give advice to others
-Bureaucrat: spells dealing with bureacracy
-Contemplative: spells to explore the nuances of the faith
-Counselor: spells to help counsel those in need
-Defender of the Faith: spells to defend the faith
-Healer: spells to heal
-Inquisitor: spells to ascertain the truth of the matter or root out enemies
-Intercession: spells to stave off the ill will of the supernatural
-Judge: spells to pass judgment
-Missionary: spells to spread the faith
-Philosopher: spells to ponder great questions
-Prophet: spells to predict the future
-Rulership: spells concerning nobles and kings
-Scholar: spells of study
-Shepherd: spells to guide the faithful
-Teacher: spells to teach others
-Templar: spells to guard the temple
-Theocracy: spells involving rule by the church

What else can you think of? Remember, it's okay if there's some overlap; I'd rather have an extra custom domain that only one god offers than have a god offer an inappropriate domain.

More later; I'm going to work on this some in Word for a while and see what I come up with!

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Inquisition, maybe?