Red Box discontinued......Smart Move?

[S'mon]

As for the PF box, I've checked it out and think it's good and all, but I despise the mat that won't lay flat with its prominent creases

If you counterfold the creases it will lay flat. IME you only have to do this a couple times and it should lay flat from then on.

 

[Walking Dad]

Or, since they are advanced concepts... you could buy the corebook ($10 PDF) or even get them out of the PFSRD. That's the thing, I don't think there's any reason for them to make specific downloads for rule add-ons since the rules are freely available.

Your point?
I still think it would have been a good "extra". That you disagree is just what you are thinking. All rules are available for free, as are the barbarian class the added as a download.

I honestly think that would have added a level of complexity to the BB that wasn't necessary since instead of being a left out rule... it would instead be a wrong rule thta would need to be re-taught the right way later.

And I think it was strange to make a 'cannot do things that would draw AoOs' rule for one thing(spellcasting) and not do same for another (movement). Not able to cast next to an enemy is as 'wrong' as no having to use a 5ft step to move away from an enemy.

But the red box was essentials classes, are you missing that? They were just edited poorly and contained numerous errors.

The essential mage and warpriest still had to many power options for a beginners set, IMHO.

Well the CB is no longer free for any levels, and this was before the red box was released. Has H1 and the quick start rules been updated with the most recent eratta and rules... if not it's kind of a bad example to use for beginners.

It was actual when they made the sets. The errata is freely available and even the Paizo box downloads have errata for the box.

And D&D 4e was an update, it is still playable without them, where in the box were just typos and false numbers.

---

I like the Paizo Box, but it is unfair to say everything in it was great and everything 4e did was bad.

 

[Windjammer]

If memory serves...

Quest for Fun!: Inflection Point


Dark Sun Campaign Guide was discontinued under less than a year, which bodes ill for the remaining stock of the Dark Sun Creature Catalogue and the accompanying adventure.

Adventurer's Vault 1 is out of print, and I regard that as a corner stone of the D&D 4.0 experience. At the same time, Mordenkainen's Emporium is only available through elusive distribution channels.

I gotta say, after disgruntling the fans it seems WotC has finally managed to disgruntle the distributors too. All on the premise that WotC_Husarl (as per the linked to wizards.com forum) is correct that WotC still have plenty of stock of the Red Box - and that 100% of the online distributors have conspired against taking up their stock.

 

[Imaro]

Your point?

I thought my point was pretty clear...

I still think it would have been a good "extra". That you disagree is just what you are thinking. All rules are available for free, as are the barbarian class the added as a download.

I find this complaint flawed and nitpicky... "The BB isn't that good because they didn't post an AoO rules download online... even though I can readily get it online."

And I think it was strange to make a 'cannot do things that would draw AoOs' rule for one thing(spellcasting) and not do same for another (movement). Not able to cast next to an enemy is as 'wrong' as no having to use a 5ft step to move away from an enemy.

Or, *sigh* instead of "strange" it could be simplifying and minimizing the amount of things a new DM and players have to remember and keep track of. As to the rule being different from core, I'll give you that... but it is compatible with the core rules. If I play in a corebook game and choose never to have my caster cast when he is adjacent to an enemy... I'm not breaking any rules of the Pathfinder corebook.

The essential mage and warpriest still had to many power options for a beginners set, IMHO.

Now it's my turn... what's your point? You keep shifting what you are talking about. The main issue with classes in the red box is that they were sloppily done and contained numerous errors... not that they weren't essentials or that the mage and warpriest had to many powers...IMO

It was actual when they made the sets. The errata is freely available and even the Paizo box downloads have errata for the box.

Doesn't matter if, for an evergreen product, it's not there now... does it?
I don't think WotC even put an official eratta out for their starter set... the fans did if I remember correctly. So yeah, another point for Paizo.

And D&D 4e was an update, it is still playable without them, where in the box were just typos and false numbers.

Wait aminute, so you're okay with "wrong rules" in D&D 4e, as long as it is "playable" but not in the PF BB... okay...

---

I like the Paizo Box, but it is unfair to say everything in it was great and everything 4e did was bad.

No one claimed PF BB was perfect... but I'm sorry IMO, the Pathfinder BB blows the Red box starter out the water in quality, replay value, extras and production. WotC could actually take some lessons form their starter since it encapulates most of what people have claimed a starter set should be.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No one claimed PF BB was perfect... but I'm sorry IMO, the Pathfinder BB blows the Red box starter out the water in quality, replay value, extras and production. WotC could actually take some lessons form their starter since it encapulates most of what people have claimed a starter set should be.

Sure, at 3.5x the shelf price... I don't think the two products are entirely comparable. WotC decided to go with a tiered approach where the RB is only the most basic introduction and some useful game aids. The advantage being if you're interested in playing all you need is a cheap HotF* book, which with the RB adds up to less than the cost of the BB. The proper comparision IMHO would be between the BB and the DMK plus a HotF* book. Now you see that each of these has a somewhat similar amount and kind of stuff, but the Essentials product gives you 30 levels of play (and may cost a few bucks more). Clearly in either case you're still going to want a couple more books, either an MV and another HotF* book or the PF core books to have the 'complete' game.

Now, maybe the way Paizo has factored things up into different products is going to work better, I don't know. I suspect it has more to do with the current catalog of each company.

 

[Imaro]

Sure, at 3.5x the shelf price...

Wait the red box is 19.99... 3.5 *$19.99 = $69.97... Dude if you paid that much for the PF BB... you got cheated.

I don't think the two products are entirely comparable. WotC decided to go with a tiered approach where the RB is only the most basic introduction and some useful game aids. The advantage being if you're interested in playing all you need is a cheap HotF* book, which with the RB adds up to less than the cost of the BB.

Where are you getting these prices from?

PF BB- $34.99
Red Box-$19.99
Heroes of the Fallen...- $19.99

The proper comparision IMHO would be between the BB and the DMK plus a HotF* book. Now you see that each of these has a somewhat similar amount and kind of stuff, but the Essentials product gives you 30 levels of play (and may cost a few bucks more). Clearly in either case you're still going to want a couple more books, either an MV and another HotF* book or the PF core books to have the 'complete' game.

This is disingenuous. You want to compare part of the full game for one (D&D 4e and you still have no monsters whatsoever with DMK and HoF) with the starter set for another and you feel that's fair? Really? Now if we actually want some monsters in the mix you end up with HoF, DM Kit and MV... which comes to

HoF= $19.95
DM Kit = $39.99
MV = $29.99
Total = $89.93

PF BB= $34.95
PF corebook = $49.99
Total = $84.94

Now, maybe the way Paizo has factored things up into different products is going to work better, I don't know. I suspect it has more to do with the current catalog of each company.

So Paizo comes out a better deal (as long as we use the actual correct prices) and gives a better quality product (preference for rules not-withstanding of course)

 

[Walking Dad]

I thought my point was pretty clear...

I find this complaint flawed and nitpicky... "The BB isn't that good because they didn't post an AoO rules download online... even though I can readily get it online."

It was a wish not a complained. And as I said, the whole content is online. That you can find it by searching a PRD doesn't make something easy to find.

Or, *sigh* instead of "strange" it could be simplifying and minimizing the amount of things a new DM and players have to remember and keep track of. As to the rule being different from core, I'll give you that... but it is compatible with the core rules. If I play in a corebook game and choose never to have my caster cast when he is adjacent to an enemy... I'm not breaking any rules of the Pathfinder corebook.

Nor would the rule from CoCd20 I cited.

Now it's my turn... what's your point? You keep shifting what you are talking about. The main issue with classes in the red box is that they were sloppily done and contained numerous errors... not that they weren't essentials or that the mage and warpriest had to many powers...IMO

Whose complaint? And there is a free conversion document. I don't find it at the moment, but it was easy to get a copy when the Red Box was new. And as I said, there are also errors in the Pathfinder box. BTW, what were the errors in the Red Box?

Doesn't matter if, for an evergreen product, it's not there now... does it?
I don't think WotC even put an official eratta out for their starter set... the fans did if I remember correctly. So yeah, another point for Paizo.

Needing no errata is a bit easier with an 'older' system. Once again, what needed to be errated?

Wait aminute, so you're okay with "wrong rules" in D&D 4e, as long as it is "playable" but not in the PF BB... okay...

In one, the powers work a bit different, but the game is still functional. The other has 37 instead of 13 HP for enemies, Ini +9 instead of -1.
What were the 'errors' in the red box?

No one claimed PF BB was perfect... but I'm sorry IMO, the Pathfinder BB blows the Red box starter out the water in quality, replay value, extras and production. WotC could actually take some lessons form their starter since it encapulates most of what people have claimed a starter set should be.

I think personally the price is to high for a starter set and that WotC did good work with the then free character builder and the quickstart and free adventures at the beginning.
I also think the use currently 'encounters' as their introduction to new players.

But yes, the Pathinder Box itself is very good. I'm just not sure WotC needs to take some lessons from it.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

HoF= $19.95
DM Kit = $39.99
MV = $29.99
Total = $89.93

PF BB= $34.95
PF corebook = $49.99
Total = $84.94

...

What about the pathfinder bestiaries? I want them in addition to the corebook.

But Pathfinder will always be 'cheaper' because of the PRD, right?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wait the red box is 19.99... 3.5 *$19.99 = $69.97... Dude if you paid that much for the PF BB... you got cheated.




Where are you getting these prices from?

PF BB- $34.99
Red Box-$19.99
Heroes of the Fallen...- $19.99

D&D Starter Set (Red Box) is $12.
PF BB Admittedly you can find for $28. So really, I'm not exactly far off...
HotF* $12.
4e DM's Kit $16

So, I can get the PF BB for $28 and I can get a DM's Kit and a HotF* for $28. Imagine that!

This is disingenuous. You want to compare part of the full game for one (D&D 4e and you still have no monsters whatsoever with DMK and HoF) with the starter set for another and you feel that's fair? Really? Now if we actually want some monsters in the mix you end up with HoF, DM Kit and MV... which comes to

HoF= $19.95
DM Kit = $39.99
MV = $29.99
Total = $89.93

PF BB= $34.95
PF corebook = $49.99
Total = $84.94

Your prices are a BIT different from what you can actually find, see above. There's nothing at all disingenuous about my comparison, no more than there is comparing the $12 Red Box to the $28 PF BB. And when we compare the $28 worth of Essentials Product I can get with the $28 worth of PF product I can get there's a surprisingly similar value there! The DM's Kit also has a fairly decent number of monsters in it if you look. Not all you need to play in the long run, but It will get you through a couple levels of play. It isn't like the BB has some huge monster compendium in it either...

So Paizo comes out a better deal (as long as we use the actual correct prices) and gives a better quality product (preference for rules not-withstanding of course)

Well, here's my analysis. The PF BB gives you 5 levels of play. DMK+HotF* gives you 30 levels of play. I don't know how many monsters the PF BB gives you, they don't say exactly, but in general you're getting an abbreviated set of rules. There are SOME bits of 4e you'll be missing too, rituals mainly, and you'll certainly need more monsters to run 4e at some point fairly soon, but again I don't know that this is not also true with the BB. Each one will give you basically a few core classes and races.

The 4e Red Box itself? As I said before, it is $12, so comparing it to the PF BB flat out is apples and oranges and I see no reason not to stick with that opinion. There's not an EXACT equivalent way to get exactly the same stuff for exactly the same price with the 2 systems, but the RB DOES serve a useful purpose in being a cheaper, and albeit quite a bit less complete, intro. Honestly it is fine to like one better than the other, but to say that WotC 'blew it' or did a crappy job on the RB as some people have claimed is not really at all fair. Give them a $36 price point instead of a $20 price point and presumably they can supply basically the same material. They just chose a different product strategy. Maybe that strategy is WRONG, but there's no way to know if it is or not. The execution of the RB overall was pretty good. Neither it nor the PF BB has EXACTLY compatible rules with later products and that was AFAICT the single real criticism of the RB. I think the RB could be improved some, but it certainly isn't a bad product.

 

[Imaro]

D&D Starter Set (Red Box) is $12.
PF BB Admittedly you can find for $28. So really, I'm not exactly far off...
HotF* $12.
4e DM's Kit $16

So, I can get the PF BB for $28 and I can get a DM's Kit and a HotF* for $28. Imagine that!

Actually since we're going this route it's $23 at amazon.com...
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Beginner-Box/dp/1601253729/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321648342&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Beginner Box (9781601253729): Jason Bulmahn, Sean K Reynolds, Wayne Reynolds: Books[/ame]

So I was actually trying to be fair by using the actual MSRP. so again... it's still cheaper and not 3.5 times the price of the red box... so yeah you were far off.

Your prices are a BIT different from what you can actually find, see above. There's nothing at all disingenuous about my comparison, no more than there is comparing the $12 Red Box to the $28 PF BB. And when we compare the $28 worth of Essentials Product I can get with the $28 worth of PF product I can get there's a surprisingly similar value there! The DM's Kit also has a fairly decent number of monsters in it if you look. Not all you need to play in the long run, but It will get you through a couple levels of play. It isn't like the BB has some huge monster compendium in it either...

It is a little disingenuous (ignoring the gigantic exaggeration of PF BB being 3.5 times the price of the red box) when I can find a cheaper price easily by going to the major internet online discount seller, which I assumed if you are comparing cheapest prices instead of MSRP you would have done as well. That's why the easiest and most fair route would have been to stick to MSRP.

As to the monster issue, the reality of the matter is that the PF BB gives you enough monsters,magic items (which I'd be willing to bet are even more than in the DM Kit/HoF), etc. to cover 5 levels of play, along with a downloadable enhancement with even more monsters, magic items, etc... and then you can hit the PFSRD for even more monsters that are free... again bang for buck seems to go to the PF BB

Well, here's my analysis. The PF BB gives you 5 levels of play. DMK+HotF* gives you 30 levels of play. I don't know how many monsters the PF BB gives you, they don't say exactly, but in general you're getting an abbreviated set of rules. There are SOME bits of 4e you'll be missing too, rituals mainly, and you'll certainly need more monsters to run 4e at some point fairly soon, but again I don't know that this is not also true with the BB. Each one will give you basically a few core classes and races.

You'll also need more magic items (MME) to run 4e from those two books... so add MV, and MME, see how the price keeps going up? It's still cheaper to go PF BB + core + monsters from PFSRD.

The 4e Red Box itself? As I said before, it is $12, so comparing it to the PF BB flat out is apples and oranges and I see no reason not to stick with that opinion. There's not an EXACT equivalent way to get exactly the same stuff for exactly the same price with the 2 systems, but the RB DOES serve a useful purpose in being a cheaper, and albeit quite a bit less complete, intro. Honestly it is fine to like one better than the other, but to say that WotC 'blew it' or did a crappy job on the RB as some people have claimed is not really at all fair. Give them a $36 price point instead of a $20 price point and presumably they can supply basically the same material. They just chose a different product strategy. Maybe that strategy is WRONG, but there's no way to know if it is or not. The execution of the RB overall was pretty good. Neither it nor the PF BB has EXACTLY compatible rules with later products and that was AFAICT the single real criticism of the RB. I think the RB could be improved some, but it certainly isn't a bad product.

No the single real criticism of the Red Box was, IME, it's low play and replay value... of course there were many others surrounding the product that were just as valid.


we can just agree to disagree as far as it's quality since you are certainly entitled to your opinion, personally I prefer books with covers to paper pamphlets, a reusable flip mat to paper maps, enough levels to provide months of play andbe re-playable numerous times as well as stand-up's to tokens. I mean you can run an entire mini-campaign from the BB.

In the end I voted with my dollars. I bought one red box and thought it was crap... I've purchased 1 PF BB for myself and after seeing the quality and utility of the product I went ahead and purchased 3 more PF BB for my nieces and nephews this christmas confident that they would get much more out of these than they would the RB. WotC honestly made it easy for me to decide which way to go this christmas season.