Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

[Simulacrum]

The books are the books, and the story's therein are not exactly D&D pen and paper.
If the sisters & elmi and all the other chosen of Mystra were more epic than they are now, the red wizards would be also more powerful etc.. its not a good point of measure.

I say the game should always "go with the pc's", as soon as they "advance" and become epic, they start to see that there is allready a world full of epic politcis and powers ahead of them.
Why the Red Wizards havent killed any of the Sisters yet?
LoL because wotc just thinks and that good should always win and that the baddies are always stupid and never get even the best plan working thats why.
But honestly I dont play evil = stupid.
On a grand scale such generalazations are stupid anyway.
Even disregarding this, one could argue that the choosen and many other epic powers on Faerun have struggled long enough (for hundreds of years actually) to have maintained some sort of status quo, and that most epic forces need them for their politics even tho they hate them. One can imagine that some evil wizards needs some epic hero alive, otherwise he could not *convince* his superiors/gods/underligngs that his regime is good as is and that only "he" can manage that problem....whatever.
But PC's (especialy those that got more or less bumped into epic gaming, without any real background and interaction with all those epic forces around them) cant just benefit from this things without them realy having worked for it hard. I mean just because you are *epic* doesnt mean you are not disposable or that any other epic force was more favoured by their surroundings.

And an epic evil organazation like the Red Wizards (hey that THE EVIL EPIC ORG!) would certainly try one of the above. Most likely trying to capture on or two out of the party and making them strike a deal with them, (one that is not going in favour of the party) so that they at least pay for teh damage they have done, and make them show that there is no such thing as fopping with the Red Wizards. I mean if it was so easy to rip apart the Red Wizards, explain why no one has done it yet?

You see you have to look at both sides of an argument.

Or why dont the evil gods that the red wizards have done many favours for, are not angered at the good party's out there and destroy them at a regular basis?
Just because Szass Tam decides to make short work of an epic party doesnt mean that the the gods can interpose or actually act against the Red's. Yes mabe they will curse Szass Tam a lot. But hey what has he got to fear? He is nearly a god himself and he is not hedged out of the world of Mortals by AO like the real gods.

None the less, Szass Tam is literarily FORCED to retaliate with a quick but devastating strike. If just about anyone would hit on his business like your party did, he would be soon dishonored and be pushed aside by the other zulkirs.
If I was Szass Tam I would kill your party. Not because the party is a threat to me, rather my fellow zulkirs are a serious threat to me.
Its all politics you know

For real if you was Szass Tam you would do the same. And Szass and Larloch have a pretty good relationship. If Szass needs some epic liches and vampires he gets them. I mean what harm can it do. Liches and epic vampires cannot be destroyed (at leat not without checking larlochs lair first) anyway. So there is no reason he could not get some of larlochs lackeys for a day or two...

and btw. you are done with the RW PrC at 15th level, there you can jump into the archmage PrC right away, and you'll get CS mastery as soon as everyone else.

 

[Toras]

We don't even know if Szass Tam is even involved in the Drug trade. Assume that he is, the people we have destroyed are doubtfully very high up on the food chain. Of course if it was another zulkir, suddenly the access to epic undead and nether artifacts disappears. Now they have to organize an attack party willing to go have way across the world to attack the enemy. How many epic level subordinates does the average zulkir have on hand, that are willing to step in themselves? I am honestly curious.

Assuming its him, he could ask for Lorath the undead, but honestly he would have to teleport them in at the entrance (due to our wardings) and run the holy ground gauntlet or try to overpower said wardings, which is he do able at his level but that act would set off the alarms, allowing everyone to get prepared. It wouldn't be as easy or trivial a thing as you are contending.

According to his write up in the epic level handbook, "he works from the shadows and is perfectly willing to abandon servants and attempts that fail and simply try again later...He's not exerting power yet." You may play it differently but that is what it says. He is undead, he could just wait for us to grow old and die.

As to the "evil" wizards that want us around, we might not have Thay interested in us, but a certain master of Undermountain looks upon us with good favor.

For the Balance issue, you have to remember the time frame. The enclave of Shade, an incredibly powerful group of "evil" netherese have appeared on the scene. They have incredibly powerful magic and are likely causing great speculations in Thay. Honestly, who would be more of a concern, ancient Netherise with a mythalar or a group.

Tell you what. Design what you would consider an appropriate strike force.
You know that there is 1-2 clerics, 1 samurai, 1 monk, 1 wujen/archmage (hidden), 1 spellfire wielder, and 1 wizard/rogue noble. That is the party.
There are countless npcs including (Gold, Silver, and other metallic dragons), 1 epic paladin, 1 additional epic cleric, 1 assassin, and the clergy of the two temples. I've already explained the mansion set up, post what your "strike force" would look like or how you would go about it. I like it, I will foward it on to our DM, and see if we run through it.

 

[The Little Raven]

Umm no, actually the description say 1 or more schools wich means that if you took divination you have to drop one otherwise two....that makes two schools lost completely and two from level 3 or at best spell level 4, wich is a a joke imho and is completely unplayable and insanely high cost.

Can you read? From the DMG, page 194:

For example, Ghorus Toth is specialized in the school of transmutation. His prohibited schools are abjuration and enchantment. When he becomes a Red Wizard, he must choose one other prohibited school. He decides to select conjuration as his additional prohibited school.

 

[Simulacrum]

copy paste error from 3.0 FRSC. What did you expect?
The rules text says something else. So yep I can read.


And Toras, for starters if I was Szass Tam I would level the whole building to the ground with one epic spell powered by a wish. Sorry no warning, just dead people.

 

[Toras]

From Epic Book
1. Szass Tam doesn't have epic spell casting, he has improved spell capacity (10th, 11th) but not epic sepll casting. Thus no epic spells for him until he gains a couple more levels.
2.Epic spells are developed, and take time and effort to research. Given that he would first have to gain sufficent experience to create the spell as well. It would also take several months of research. All this would likely delay him.
3.Epic Spells aren't powered by Wish, though they could be. It wouldn't lower the cost though.
4.He doesn't have a high enough spell craft to research the really powerful epic spells. He could learn Ruin, Rain of Fire, or something similar. The problem being he would have to do at least 400 points over a 2 mile radius to us personally to kill all of us, and god help him if he picks the wrong energy type. Or our paladin with the holy devestator shows up. Also a couple members of our party are immune to death attacks.

Admittedly you could just give him the levels, the feat, and the spell that could destroy us all. But then you could give that to anybody.

 

[Simulacrum]

On the other hand he has quite a few netherese artifacts that can help him out there. And he still has about any spell ever written (non epic) so he uses a proper 9th level spell and powers it with enough wishes to achieve a similar (if not greater) effect.
Epic magic is not really that strong anyway.

Anyway there are plenty of ways you know that. Hell he is OLD. Its will not be the first time he killed some goons.
Please be realistic. He is ten times longer around then anyone else from his callibre, so he will know how to deal with just about anyone.

 

[Toras]

I am trying to be realistic. I am simple contending that it would not be the minor task that you are contending for the following reasons.
1. Nether Artifacts, though more potent than those produced by the wizards of Toril proper, are by no means equivalent to Divine Artifacts. They generally range from High End Magic items to Epic Magic Items. Many of the truly powerful items do not function without Heavy Magic or a functioning Mythalar, which no one has accept for Shade.
2. Our Group, is not, I repeat is not your typical adventuring party. For one, a full half our party is not from this prime. Of those who are, many of them are from the far corners of the globe, like Halruu, and the Unapproachable East. Our casters possess magic that has never been seen on Toril, and many of our techniques are strange and mysterious. Also, Spell Fire, especially an Epic Spell Fire Channeler, are exceptionally rare. We possess god given artifacts, epic items, and many a blessing between us. Some of us are naturally immune to death attacks, and other such spells, while still others possess potent magical defenses. His expertise is in necromancy rather any other discipline, so he is not better at dispelling that anyone else of his equivalent level.
3. Wish does not do what you think it does.

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
• Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Does anything in this description suggest a wish could reliably boost the power of a 9th level spell? ANYTHING?

And by the way, he has been a lich for 200 years, and assuming a maximum human life span that only puts him 600 years behind Elminster, and countless centuries behind Halaster and the Sisters, as well as any Elven High Mage still running around alive.

 

[Saeviomagy]

copy paste error from 3.0 FRSC. What did you expect?
The rules text says something else. So yep I can read.

The rules text says "one or more, according to the rules for specialisation". It doesn't explicitly say that you have to fulfill the rules for specializing all over again.

Which are you going to believe - the text which makes sense, or the text which makes the class, in your own words more or less, unplayable?

And can we stop this "Szass tam is the greatest wizard that ever (un)lived?" crap? It's only remotely on topic, and it's certainly not contributing to the discussion, or likely to arrive at a conclusion.

 

[Pax]

From Epic Book
1. Szass Tam doesn't have epic spell casting, he has improved spell capacity (10th, 11th) but not epic sepll casting. Thus no epic spells for him until he gains a couple more levels.

As a matter of fact, he will NEVER have Epic Spellcasting, or rather ... not whilein the FR. Mystra forbids such powerful spells; Epic Spells simply don't work on Toril.

Not for anyone ... Gods included.

 

[Toras]

Mystra forbids Spells of Level 12 and up. 10th and 11th are allowed, but watched carefully. This restriction however is due to misdeeds of the Netherese. However, if you are a shadow weave caster, the restriction need not apply. Also the restrictions on Gods are chancy, as Ao has censured Mystra over cutting gods off from portions of the weave.

As to the circle casting abilitiy, it is balanced if you take into account the fact that the extra spell levels do up the CR for the encounter, a good rule of thumb might be an additional CR for every 3-5 levels gained from the circle.