Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

[Pax]

Caster level, sure, through the roof.

Spell level ... 20th level, or 2,000,000th level ... he's not gonna use Heighten to set the spell level above 9th. Heighten can't do that. Just like Maximise can't make you roll 20's for dispel checks, even if you prepare a "maximised greater dispel magic" or some such.

HE could set the level for almost EVERY spell he had prepared, that had a saving throw, to 8 or 9 ... fine; and that'd be pretty powerful in it's own right.

But a 20th level spell, through Heighten Spell?

Not.

Physically.

Possible.

Pre-ELH, there's no such thing as a 20th level spell. Post-ELH, you need Improved Heighten to set spells at levels exceeding 9.

 

[Pseudonym]

This is just a misunderstanding and some guy over there at WotC has allready cleared that up.

Would you site a link or source for this, please?

 

[Simulacrum]

Mh I'd love to, its somewhere on the wotc board.
But it would be very hard to track it down. Basicly it says what Pax said.
You can highten the spell to increse the DC but everything else stays like it is. Its the way it was meant.
I'll give it a try right now, but dont expect me to find it right away....

 

[Grog]

Caster level, sure, through the roof.

Spell level ... 20th level, or 2,000,000th level ... he's not gonna use Heighten to set the spell level above 9th. Heighten can't do that.

The text as written in the DMG is pretty clear (emphasis mine):

The circle leader may add one of the three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

So yes, while Heighten cannot ordinarily raise a spell past 9th level, the Red Wizard is an exception and the DMG specifically says that the spell level can be raised past 9th, up to 20th.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think, if the party were ~18th-level (to roughly match the actual EL) they still couldn't beat that Red Wizard. Their saving throws simply won't be good enough.

Red Wizard Circle Leaders often lead daily circles to gain power, and any 9th-level wizard who didn't take Conjuration as his prohibited school can cast teleport.

I think it's broken, and I think the circumstances under which Circle Magic can be used aren't all that rare.

 

[Treebore]

i didn't read every post on this thread, so if I am stepping on someones toes I apologize.

A fix for being so overpowered. Granted this would have to be made oficial by WOTC, but go back to the way circle magic worked in 2e. The circle has to stay together for the duration. I would make this mean that for the Red Wizard to keep the power boost his "circle" would have to stay within ten feet of him for the whole 24 hours. Any disruption of this circle would then nullify his extra power, making it much more feasible for a party to defeat him.

But as written, the Red Wizard PrC is very broken, like many PrC's in 3.5e (and 3.0)

 

[Pax]

The text as written in the DMG is pretty clear (emphasis mine):

So yes, while Heighten cannot ordinarily raise a spell past 9th level, the Red Wizard is an exception and the DMG specifically says that the spell level can be raised past 9th, up to 20th.

That, then, triggers the "Primary Source" Errata Rule. Metamagics Feats are discussed in the PHB, not the DMG; that confers Primary Source status on the PHB rules for Heighten Spell ... so where the two conflict, the PHB's rules hold precedence.

Thus, you cannot heighten the spell to a level of above 9th. You can heighten it to 9th, and then add more metamagics BESIDES, if you want.

But Heighten only goes to 9th level. Period.

(GOD I'm gonna love being able to haul that argument out to quash assorted inanity ...)

 

[Simulacrum]

Another thing anyone noticed that Red Wizards bacame a completely non playable class:: in 3.5?

I mean who is wotc kidding. Lets say you are an Evoker.
Ok you drop Illusion and Enchantment at first level.
And at 5th or 6th level (by gaining the RW PrC) you drop
Conjuration and Necromancy.

Now your party will be like: "what sort of Wizard are you?? You can't make anyone invisible, you can't teleport, you have none of those spells that makes bg baddies die, and you can't even magicaly "persuade" people/creatures to make them do what we want?? WTF -> you are not a Wizard you are a JOKE!

Honestly who would want to play this sort of Wizard?
I mean you cant drop Abjuration and Divination, droping those two (especialy BOTH) is every mages suicide.
So you are left with Transmutation, Evocation, as combat and multi use spells.

Yeah you can power up spells to high power, but the cost to do that is imho TOO FRIGGING HIGH!
I'd rather drop GCL, and cap the power of CL more and keep another school of magic. I mean 3 schools is a cruel trade, but FOUR SCHOOLS IS INSANE!

 

[Thanee]

Do you absolutely have to be a specialist Wizard (guess so, but can't check currently )?

Funny, tho, that with the restriction on Heighten Spell, those 20 spell levels are not even possible, as 14 is the absolut maximum, the Red Wizard can achieve, since now you cannot stack Metamagic feats anymore, unlike 3.0.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Grog]

That, then, triggers the "Primary Source" Errata Rule. Metamagics Feats are discussed in the PHB, not the DMG; that confers Primary Source status on the PHB rules for Heighten Spell ... so where the two conflict, the PHB's rules hold precedence.

Thus, you cannot heighten the spell to a level of above 9th. You can heighten it to 9th, and then add more metamagics BESIDES, if you want.

But Heighten only goes to 9th level. Period.

I just read the "primary source" rule, and I guess it would apply here. It seems strange and silly that WotC would make a PrC that doesn't actually work the way it's written, though...