Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

[green slime]

Simulacrum: as a Red Wizard circle leader of level less than 10th Red Wizard level, you can only lead 5 others in a circle. This means that a Red Wizard of less than 15th character level can only possibly have 25 Circle Bonus levels, if he has access to 5 9th level wizards.

The bonus drops quite radically if you lower the level of the participants, or the number of participants. All of these factors are under DM control. As DM, you have to decide how the circle leader is gaining control of these high level wizards.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, there's care, and then there's care, you know? As the Red Wizard stands now, I basically have two options:

1. Don't use it

2. Use it, but cripple it so that my PCs have a chance against it.

If those are my only choices, I'll take option 1, because I'd much rather make a villian that can use all its resources against the PCs without it being an auto-TPK.

Here's where I think you might be getting off-track, Grog. It is very, very easy for a DM to design an encounter with an EL three or four levels over the EPL that is a TPK. The encounter you're talking about has an EL three or four levels over the party's EPL. IIRC, and as jgsugden has noted, a 15th-level NPC plus nine 9th-level NPCs is a strong EL 17. With preparation (which circle magic most certainly is; it requires a coordinated advance effort by the NPCs at the start of the day), the EL is arguably HIGHER. I can build you an EL 17 dragon or half-dragon troll frenzied berserker + cleric cohort encounter that will trash 13th-14th level PCs as well. It's not a question of "crippling" the PrC, but recognizing that this encounter might need to wait a few levels. Against 17th-level PCs, this guy really isn't all that bad; a single 9th-level spell can take him out pretty easily. Some encounters do work that way.

Also, I think it's a bit unfair to call the RW brokety-broke-broke when it really only works this way as an NPC class. You DO have the option, as the DM, to control how the class's power is used, and that is NOT "crippling" it. It's more like not deliberately stacking templates so as to make a BBEG immune to the PCs' attacks (something that's quite easy under core rules) or designing a vampire that walks around with its own EL +10 worth of dominated followers and spawn and keeps a steady stock of 200 temporary hit points from blood drain.

[Edit: "PCs" to PrC.]

 

[Simulacrum]

Another thing. If you could highten a spell over the max spell level you can cast it would mean that you could effectively gain new spell slots.
Like hightening a 7th level slot to 20th you gain another 7th level slot for free. *lol*
That would be stupid.

 

[Simulacrum]

Another thing. If you could highten a spell over the max spell level you can cast it would mean that you could effectively gain new spell slots.
Like hightening a 7th level slot to 20th you gain another 7th level slot for free. *lol*
That would be stupid.

 

[Spatula]

Another thing. If you could highten a spell over the max spell level you can cast it would mean that you could effectively gain new spell slots.
Like hightening a 7th level slot to 20th you gain another 7th level slot for free. *lol*
That would be stupid.

You don't *actually* metamagic the spell to a 20th level spell, you cast the spell in its normal slot but can apply metamagics with the caveat that the final spell level can't be above 20th. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[jester47]

You don't *actually* metamagic the spell to a 20th level spell, you cast the spell in its normal slot but can apply metamagics with the caveat that the final spell level can't be above 20th. At least that's how I understand it.

Spatuala has the right of it.

A red Wizard memorises his spells for the day and then goes and does the circle thing.

After that he can trick out his spells with the remaining levels from the circle magic that he did not use to raise his caster level.

So if he has prepared a fireball at 3rd level, he can maximise it and empower it. At that point his fireball that he memorised at breakfast before the circle is an 8th level spell coming out of a third level slot. Then he can burn 12 more of his stored levels to make it a 20th level spell and essentially unstoppable. But it still only does a max of 90pts of damage because it is still really a third level spell. In this case spell damage is calculated by the true level of the caster. Its just a very dangerous and unavoidable third level spell.

This is from the red wizard description in the DMG:

"The circle leader may add one of the three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leaders normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th)."

Key words here are:
...OR THE ADDITION OF THE FEAT WOULD RAISE THE SPELL LEVEL PAST THE CIRCLE LEADER'S NORMAL MAXIMUM SPELL LEVEL.

This works because the spell that is getting heightened is already prepared.

Red Wizard circle leaders prepare it as a normal spell, then the spell gets pumped up by the magic of the circle rather than pumping it up while it is being prepared (as most wizards do and he woul do normally if he were not a circle leader).

Its just a way for wizards to cast unstopable spells. So yes that finger of death is unstoppable. Think twice before taking on a frikkin red wizard... They are dangerous.

Aaron.

 

[Endur]

I think Circle Magic is great. It should be a feat and not a PRC in my opinion.

 

[Pax]

This is from the red wizard description in the DMG:

"The circle leader may add one of the three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leaders normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th)."

Key words here are:
...OR THE ADDITION OF THE FEAT WOULD RAISE THE SPELL LEVEL PAST THE CIRCLE LEADER'S NORMAL MAXIMUM SPELL LEVEL.

This works because the spell that is getting heightened is already prepared.

Red Wizard circle leaders prepare it as a normal spell, then the spell gets pumped up by the magic of the circle rather than pumping it up while it is being prepared (as most wizards do and he woul do normally if he were not a circle leader).

Its just a way for wizards to cast unstopable spells. So yes that finger of death is unstoppable. Think twice before taking on a frikkin red wizard... They are dangerous.

Aaron.

Of course, the rules for the metamagicks themselves still apply. And Heighten doesn't allow you to set a spell-level of over 9th. you need Improved Heighten for that ... and Circle Magic doesn't GIVE you that feat as a choice.

 

[Simulacrum]

Yeah, that makes even a little sense. Now I fully undestand the application of the feature.
Its still a little weird in its mechanic, but it follows what the wotc guy said about it. Interesting....

 

[jester47]

Of course, the rules for the metamagicks themselves still apply. And Heighten doesn't allow you to set a spell-level of over 9th. you need Improved Heighten for that ... and Circle Magic doesn't GIVE you that feat as a choice.

I will concede that point. I think the reason they put the 20th level cap in the description is that when the description was written (it was cut whole cloth from the FRCS) there was a rudimentary Epic Level system in place. So this is considering circle magic in the epic levels. But as long as the character is under 20th level, you are right, he is limited to heightening his spells to 9th level.

Though I think he can still put his caster level through the roof if he wants... not sure though...

Aaron.