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Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????
- Thread starter Grog
- Start date
Snipehunt
First Post
The main problem is that it's a roleplaying issue, not a "power" issue. A Red Wizard also could have used its resources as an item-creation factory, and made a ton of magic loot that makes it invincible. But we all know he didn't. Because that would make him overpowered for the PC's.
Same deal here. A PC red wizard wouldn't have the ability to do much damage with the circle. Leadership doesn't give enough cohorts of useful levels, and it would cost too much money to get others to cast the spells every day. An NPC red wizard is balanced by the fact that it can't just kill the PC's.
Well, IMO.
Same deal here. A PC red wizard wouldn't have the ability to do much damage with the circle. Leadership doesn't give enough cohorts of useful levels, and it would cost too much money to get others to cast the spells every day. An NPC red wizard is balanced by the fact that it can't just kill the PC's.
Well, IMO.
jgsugden
Legend
Grog, there is no point in arguing. At the core, we agree.
A 15th level wizard/red wizard should not be running around with 9 9th level wizards in his circle on a daily basis. That is far too strong for a 15th level creature.
You think this means the class can not be used. I think it means that the DM has to avoid that particualr kind of extreme case *or* use great care in how it is used.
We disagree on what is a balanced supporting cast for a 15th level wizard, but in the end, the design of the supporting cast is up to the DM. If you think a 15th level wizard should be running around with 9 9th level wizards that are at his beck and call, I have no right to tell you not to do it. I can just say that it is not something I'd do in my game and it seems out of whack with the advise on encounter construction in the DMG.
Good luck in your gaming.
A 15th level wizard/red wizard should not be running around with 9 9th level wizards in his circle on a daily basis. That is far too strong for a 15th level creature.
You think this means the class can not be used. I think it means that the DM has to avoid that particualr kind of extreme case *or* use great care in how it is used.
We disagree on what is a balanced supporting cast for a 15th level wizard, but in the end, the design of the supporting cast is up to the DM. If you think a 15th level wizard should be running around with 9 9th level wizards that are at his beck and call, I have no right to tell you not to do it. I can just say that it is not something I'd do in my game and it seems out of whack with the advise on encounter construction in the DMG.
Good luck in your gaming.
Hammerhead
Explorer
Assuming he has access to Illusion, he could use Simalcrums to get a few 7th-8th level 'apprentices.'
jgsugden said:
Well, there's care, and then there's care, you know? As the Red Wizard stands now, I basically have two options:
1. Don't use it
2. Use it, but cripple it so that my PCs have a chance against it.
If those are my only choices, I'll take option 1, because I'd much rather make a villian that can use all its resources against the PCs without it being an auto-TPK. That's much more challenging for the PCs and much more fun for everyone.
jgsugden said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but would you consider it unbalanced for a frost giant king (CR 15) to have nine regular frost giants (all CR 9) at his beck and call? If not, what makes that situation any different?
jgsugden said:
You too. I appreciate the discussion, even if I disagree.
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Your basic premise is flawed, Grog. You're looking at it and saying that this 15th level wizard who's prepped for the encounter plus his 9 free cohorts are more than your 13th level PCs can handle. Of course he is. But that's really no different than looking at any other creature that's already a tough challenge, and assuming that it would have lots of tough minions. Take a spectre, for instance. It has the create spawn ability. It could depopulate and enslave as spectres and entire village, if no adventurers happened to be passing through. But that doesn't mean that when you create an encounter with a spectre that you should just assume that it has another 250 spectre minions, and that those don't change the balance of the encounter.
If you want to use this guy at 15th level, leave out the minions. Just like you would if you wanted to use a spectre at CR 7. If you want to use him at ~CR 18 (with lots of powerful minions and favorable circumstances) then yes, he's going to kick the stuffing out of your 13th level characters. Big surprise.
Or, you could create him as, say, 13th level. Let him spend a feat on Leadership to get his minions, and let them (a 9th level, a 2nd level, and a bunch of 1st levels) contribute to his circle for a max of 11 levels.
You don't have to create overkill just because you can. And your badguy can use all of the resources available to him in the encounter, if you set those resources to a resonable level. If you give him essentially unlimited resources, of course there's going to be a problem.
If you want to use this guy at 15th level, leave out the minions. Just like you would if you wanted to use a spectre at CR 7. If you want to use him at ~CR 18 (with lots of powerful minions and favorable circumstances) then yes, he's going to kick the stuffing out of your 13th level characters. Big surprise.
Or, you could create him as, say, 13th level. Let him spend a feat on Leadership to get his minions, and let them (a 9th level, a 2nd level, and a bunch of 1st levels) contribute to his circle for a max of 11 levels.
You don't have to create overkill just because you can. And your badguy can use all of the resources available to him in the encounter, if you set those resources to a resonable level. If you give him essentially unlimited resources, of course there's going to be a problem.
Wish speaks the truth. You're looking at "wizard + extraneous resources" as a CR 15 encounter, when it's not. The wizard alone is CR15. The Red Wizard class doesn't give you any followers ... it just lets you benefit more form any followers you get yourself, if they're of the right sort of followers.
The wizard with the extra resources ... is more than CR15. CR17 is, IMO, a consrvative estimate. And at CR 17, you're +4 ovr your party's average level, so TPK is almost to be expected, more often than not!
The wizard with the extra resources ... is more than CR15. CR17 is, IMO, a consrvative estimate. And at CR 17, you're +4 ovr your party's average level, so TPK is almost to be expected, more often than not!
Simulacrum
First Post
Just my two cents. To be able to heighten a spell to 20th level does NOT mean that you can freely do it. YOU CAN do it if you have a 20th level slot available. This is just a misunderstanding and some guy over there at WotC has allready cleared that up. So no Grog you are wrong and Pax is right.
Still yes teh Red Wizard circle magic is slightly off because it is not capped. It should be capped this way:
Circle Leader: +10 levels
Great Cicle Leader: +20 leves
Otherwise the thing that I think is not ok is that the Red Wizard is--> "Über high cost -> high power" type of PrC.
And that is no good in itself.
I mean drop FOUR schools of MAGIC. THIS IS INSANE.
Still yes teh Red Wizard circle magic is slightly off because it is not capped. It should be capped this way:
Circle Leader: +10 levels
Great Cicle Leader: +20 leves
Otherwise the thing that I think is not ok is that the Red Wizard is--> "Über high cost -> high power" type of PrC.
And that is no good in itself.
I mean drop FOUR schools of MAGIC. THIS IS INSANE.
green slime
First Post
Reading through the actual description in the DMG, I see no problem with this at all.
Given these facts, the Red Wizard in question will probably be more worried about trying to discern who actually put these chump "Heroes" up to this act of utter stupidity, and what his enemies hope to gain in the process, than actually pouring all his resources into one PC-slaughter feast. Because, the Red Wizard assumes that is what his opponents are trying to trick him into doing. Then his so called "apprentices" will be lurking in the wings to finish of their "mentor".
Given 15th Red Wizard, with 9 9th level "apprentices", sure he can access an incredible 45 Circle bonus levels. So he expends 25 of these to increase his caster level to 40. Which means he is likely to overcome any Spell Resistance he might face. 20 Circle bonus levels left to apply metamagic feats (Heighten, Empower or Maximize) to any spells he has memorized at the time of the Circle.
Given the multitude of threats a Red Wizard may face in anyone day, would he choose to raise one or two spells out the wazoo, or would he spread them over a multitude of spells, increasing his versatility and staying power? Personally (if I was a Red Wizard), I'd rather choose the later, rather than count on my "friends" to back me up should a "big" spell fizzle for what ever reason.
Any idiot or gang of "heroes" trying to take on a Red Wizard at home had better come well prepared.
But there are far more easier ways to defeat megalomaniacal paranoid wizards
- Red Wizards are a paranoid lot.
- There is only a limited number of available "Circle bonus levels" with which to apply metamagic.
- Metamagic applied at the time of the Circle, not on the fly.
Given these facts, the Red Wizard in question will probably be more worried about trying to discern who actually put these chump "Heroes" up to this act of utter stupidity, and what his enemies hope to gain in the process, than actually pouring all his resources into one PC-slaughter feast. Because, the Red Wizard assumes that is what his opponents are trying to trick him into doing. Then his so called "apprentices" will be lurking in the wings to finish of their "mentor".
Given 15th Red Wizard, with 9 9th level "apprentices", sure he can access an incredible 45 Circle bonus levels. So he expends 25 of these to increase his caster level to 40. Which means he is likely to overcome any Spell Resistance he might face. 20 Circle bonus levels left to apply metamagic feats (Heighten, Empower or Maximize) to any spells he has memorized at the time of the Circle.
Given the multitude of threats a Red Wizard may face in anyone day, would he choose to raise one or two spells out the wazoo, or would he spread them over a multitude of spells, increasing his versatility and staying power? Personally (if I was a Red Wizard), I'd rather choose the later, rather than count on my "friends" to back me up should a "big" spell fizzle for what ever reason.
Any idiot or gang of "heroes" trying to take on a Red Wizard at home had better come well prepared.
But there are far more easier ways to defeat megalomaniacal paranoid wizards
